Unlicensed/unregulated processors

Hellraising Hot Sauce

Hellraising Hot Sauce

I think we all agree that people who sell without the proper licenses and registration, or who don't follow regulations and proper safety procedures are a nuisance. But what happens when one is in your area, marketing to the same places and actually selling it?
 
It's a weird situation, but I think I'm seeing it happen. I know the drill well enough to spot some glaring red flags: the label is obviously non compliant, I can't find the business registered with the FDA or the state, there's no lot code on the bottle and no google searches turn up any company LLC information or anything of that nature.
 
I know hot sauce producers are a relatively tight-knit group, but this kind of thing really bothers me when we've gone to the trouble and jumped through all the hoops to do it the right way. 
 
Thoughts?
 
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Some states have leniency for farmers markets and cottage industries. Is this the case? Or do you mean in the supermarket/store/Internet?
 
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I know I got threatened on FB a few times by a few different people when talking about selling my sauces in mason jars at company parties or picnics.  One I even put the $5 I made on a quart of sauce into the donation basket for wounded warriors and I got a nasty-gram in my inbox threatening to "turn me in" and I would never be able sell at any conventions from blackballing.  Another guy said my samples were "polluting the market" - no idea what that meant, but the only thing it polluted was my startup nest-egg since I spent hundreds on little 2oz bottles that... well... could have been better spent IMO.
 
I constantly have to tell people "I can't sell yet" when they ask, beg even want to trade for it.  One was a restaurant but I don't want to release the product without it being completely legit.  The Facebook experience kind of had me upset at the snobbish kinds of remarks but after spending THOUSANDS myself, and where I am, I built this.  I wouldn't want some yahoo to just come up with a concept and be on store shelves the next week with complete disregard.
 
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Kalitarios said:
I know I got threatened on FB a few times by a few different people when talking about selling my sauces in mason jars at company parties or picnics.  One I even put the $5 I made on a quart of sauce into the donation basket for wounded warriors and I got a nasty-gram in my inbox threatening to "turn me in" and I would never be able sell at any conventions from blackballing.  Another guy said my samples were "polluting the market" - no idea what that meant, but the only thing it polluted was my startup nest-egg since I spent hundreds on little 2oz bottles that... well... could have been better spent IMO.
 
I constantly have to tell people "I can't sell yet" when they ask, beg even want to trade for it.  One was a restaurant but I don't want to release the product without it being completely legit.  The Facebook experience kind of had me upset at the snobbish kinds of remarks but after spending THOUSANDS myself, and where I am, I built this.  I wouldn't want some yahoo to just come up with a concept and be on store shelves the next week with complete disregard.
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i'll assume youre talking about somebody that rhymes with stuffy.
 
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Farmers market people can get an exemption if they grow a certain % of their ingredients , and they're limited to selling only at the farmers market and their farm stand (if they have one) - that's how it works here in CA from what I understand.

If it happens here I get irritated by it, but only from the perspective that it costs me more to do it legally, and because food safety is a priority for me.

But if you're afraid of competition you're in the wrong business. lol
 
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The sauce I am seeing isn't farmers market or cottage industry. Minnesota does have a "pickle bill" that allows for home processors to sell their sauce with less regulation (only at farmers markets or festivals, annual sales must be below a certain number, etc.) but I'm seeing this sauce at local restaurants, a few bar and grill type places, and even a convenience store/gas station.
 
I'm not afraid of the competition, ours is superior ;) And I enjoy friendly competition with other sauce makers. But it IS annoying because I go to market these places, and because they sauce was in ahead of me (for obvious reasons) they already has a foothold and maybe they don't want or need TWO local sauces. And most of these places are small, local or family owned -- they don't have a clue what kind of regulations we have to go through. They see a bottle with a safety seal and label that looks professional and assume it must be fine.
 
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Kalitarios said:
 
And when someone get's sick, the entire industry takes a hit instead.
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Yep. That's why a lot of legal / legit saucemakers have a huge problem with the ones doing it illegally.
mplshothead said:
I'm not afraid of the competition -- ours is superior! And I enjoy friendly competition with other sauce makers. But it IS annoying because I go to market these places, and because they guy was in ahead of me (for obvious reasons!) he already has a foothold and maybe they don't want or need TWO local sauces. And most of these places are small, local or family owned -- they don't have a clue what kind of regulations we have to go through. They see a bottle with a safety seal and label that looks professional and assume it must be fine.
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I hear ya - I've encountered it before.

Also I meant "you" in general, not you in particular with the competition comment. But along those lines, it sucks competing when it's not a level playing field and everyone isn't playing by the same rules.

I did a trade with a sauce company that will remain nameless and the safety seal was some hair-dryer shrink-wrap, the ingredients list was vague and clearly noncompliant (ingredients not listed by content, no net weight & numerous other glaring violations) and the bottle had leaked all over the box due to a poor seal.

I was pissed - and now I'm much more hesitant to make trades with companies of questionable legality. This dude came off like he was fully legit - said he was in stores.

I contacted him afterwards and called out the deficiencies and asked him wtf, and he totally admitted that his labels were noncompliant - but then bullshitted me some more claiming he had to correct them for his next batch.

And I know it's bullshit because I had an inspector refuse to release my 1st batch for a month because the "5 FL Oz" statement wasn't clear enough. He escalated it to his boss and they let it go, but that's a very very minor & trivial nit pick, not a totally noncompliant label. There's no way in hell they would have released his product with poor seals and bogus ingredients statements. Not a chance.

Anyway, it's tough to know what to do. I've never been one to make waves, but as mentioned, food safety is important to me, and if I have to play by the rules, so should everyone. It costs WAY more $ to do it legally, that's for sure.
 
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Virginia has some very farmer friendly cottage laws. They'll even let me get farm use only license plates if I break a certain profit percentage. I would never sell sauces to a restaurant...but produce? All day long. Sauces are more of a side hobby for me.
 
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Just a heads up.
If you are going to acuse your compitition, you better be damned sure of your claim.
 
You may be following the regs to the letter, he may be following the general guidelines.
 
Strictly speaking as a consumer, I LIKE competition, and I'll be the one telling you which product is superior.
 
And if I get sick from a product---I own the company, and all it's assets if it is a shady operation.
 
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Most Pickle Bills are for Low Risk foods like baked goods, fruit pies (not cream or merengue), candy and pickled products.  Most states that I know of do NOT include hot sauces and salsa as a low risk food.  But it's totally up to local regulations.
 
Let the FM know you have questions abut the persons legitimacy, ask to see their Licenses.  Most FMs require health permits to be posted in the booth.
 
For the stores and restaurants- If they are carrying an unlicensed product, THEY are at risk of being sued if someone gets sick!  Most businesses do not want that liability, and most just ASSUME that if someone comes in selling a product, that person is licensed.  I've never had a store ask for my licenses, but then again, I make a point of mentioning "fully licensed by WSDA and FDA"
 
Approach the store like this- "Hey I see you're carrying XYZ Hot Sauce.  I've seen it at some other places also.  I don't know for sure, but I don't think the business is licensed.  I see some things on the label that are not the way it should be for a properly licensed product.  I just wanted to mention it as you could be liable if someone gets sick from an unlicensed product.  If you happen to talk to the seller and ask them about it, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know if they are licensed."
 
If they are at a local FM, ask a friend to Secret Shopper them and ask specific questions about where they process, etc.  
 
 
Also, my state inspector goes into stores and looks at what's on the shelf.  I have no qualms about mentioning a product that is questionable, or asking the inspector if someone is licensed.  Sometimes they are, but there was an occasion where I turned in someone in Seattle to the state inspector who I KNEW was not licensed. 
 
I've contacted sellers I've found on eBay and FB asking if they were licensed.  A couple people on fleabay were selling pint jars with no labels, ingredients, anything.  When they found out they should be licensed, they pulled the listing.  I don't go out of my way LOOKING for these kinds of things, but when they come up, I'm not afraid to ask. 
 
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People try to sell canned preserves and pickled sauces in mason jars on ebay?  Wow. That's like asking for someone to get sick and own your house, car etc. without the proper business licensing.  I'll sell them at FM or to guys at work or friends, family members, etc. but I don't try to really make money off of them, just the produce.
 
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I'm not 100% positive (about 95%), but I see some red flags. The label is clearly not compliant and they are selling growler and gallon containers in addition to the 5 oz. bottles -- that stuff all has to be registered with the FDA and wherever they are making it also has to be registered with the FDA. I know because I did all this stuff and I know what a long, arduous task it was (like many others on here). It just doesn't add up.
 
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Growlers and gallons of hot sauce ?!?!????????? :eek:
 
 
Without seeing the label or having any idea what's in the sauce....I'm kinda like ....WOW. 
 
 
But, to be fair to an unknown processor....if the sauce is 3/4 vinegar, maybe it is a legal sauce... knowing that nothing can survive in 3/4's vinegar. 
 
As far as registration with the FDA- that is not necessarily mandatory.  If the person only sells in-state and the product is an acidic food, they don't need to be FDA registered.  (No interwhebz, etc...).   
 
In WA state, we also have a differentiation between Retail sales and Wholesale sales.  If I'm only RETAILING (selling directly to the customer such as at a FM) I can get licensed by my county health district.  If I WHOLESALE, I have to get State Dept of Ag licensed.  If I want to do both....I have to get licensed by both!  :rolleyes:  $$$$ for everyone~~~~
 
If you can go to one of the FM's where the person is at, I would definitely ask a few questions.  You could bait them with questions like-
Are you a local processor?
Who's your PA?
Oh, you don't know what a PA is?
Who did your process letter?
Who inspects your facility?
 
"Hey, I'm a legal processor also.  Where did you get your insurance?"
 
"How are you going to deal with NIPs?" 
 
If they fail any of these questions. you're kind of at a crossroads.  You could ask a lot more questions, get the person Hung By The Tongue, maybe even buy a bottle for evidence and then turn their ass in.
Or talk to them about the error of their ways.  See if they know they are illegal and then make it very clear that you will be informing all the "pertinent people [FM market master, store managers, local inspectors] " that the person will be contacting them about getting legal. 
 
Puts them on notice and everyone else also.  That could allow the person to GetLegal but doesn't tarnish their whole name.  They can come back to the stores after they're legit and be all good. 
 
 
 
 
PS- those who've gone through the process to get legit understand what it takes.  For a while, in the hot sauce social forums, there was a tolerance for Hobby Saucers selling sauces.  That has changed recently after some really bad things have come out.  Most sauce reviewers and bloggers will now only review legally made sauces.  But there's still a lot of sauces being presented as legal sauces that really aren't. 
 
Hang in there.  Doing it right costs more in time, effort and $$$$. but it's worth it.
 
The same thing happens in all industries.  Our "other" business is electrical contracting.... talk about REGULATIONS!!!!!   And the amount of time and $$$ it takes to run a legal electrical contacting business and maintain all of our electrical licenses with continuing educations, etc, etc, etc.....yea, I get pissed at JoeBlows doing electrical work when they shouldn't ....
 
OK, end of rant.  We're on the same side here.  Let us know what you do, if anything, and how it turns out. 
 
Best~
salsalady

Side Note to mnlpshotsauce-
I've seen Hellfire Hot Sauces on FB, did not make the connection to you here on THP.   Suggestion to put a link to your website with simple letters to your website in your SigLine.  Starts people associating  the sauce to you.... 
also, you can change your forum name once or twice (in case of miss-spellings or whatever during registration).  PM me if you want more details.... :cool:
 
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Koreansoul said:
Are you sure he's not legit? For example in Florida they give you the guidelines but no one has asked me to see my label. Could it be an over site on their part? 
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1000% positive and I'm in California (as was this maker) where the state is omnipresent and menacing.

And his story didn't make sense either. I paraphrased for brevity but his excuse was all over the place and a week later when I was at my health dept I asked about a few of the details (without mentioning his company) and was told they'd never clear a product under those circumstances.

I didn't turn him in, but I am positive they weren't legit. And I know of at least 1 store that carries the sauce. I bite my tongue and move on. Karma has a way of catching up - as SL said, state inspectors are aware of where things are sold and sometimes go look.

All it takes is one massive fine and this company will learn how affordable compliance would have been.

As I understand it the fines can be quite substantial.
 
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Lucky Dog Hot Sauce said:
1000% positive and I'm in California (as was this maker) where the state is omnipresent and menacing.

And his story didn't make sense either. I paraphrased for brevity but his excuse was all over the place and a week later when I was at my health dept I asked about a few of the details (without mentioning his company) and was told they'd never clear a product under those circumstances.

I didn't turn him in, but I am positive they weren't legit. And I know of at least 1 store that carries the sauce. I bite my tongue and move on. Karma has a way of catching up - as SL said, state inspectors are aware of where things are sold and sometimes go look.

All it takes is one massive fine and this company will learn how affordable compliance would have been.

As I understand it the fines can be quite substantial.
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If you know they aren't legit, why wouldn't you at least bring it to the attention of the AHJ's?  
 
Karma can also be saving a person from enduring or dying from food poisoning.   
 
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salsalady said:
If you know they aren't legit, why wouldn't you at least bring it to the attention of the AHJ's?  
 
Karma can also be saving a person from enduring or dying from food poisoning.   
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Tempting as it may be, I don't feel it's my place. I'm not the store selling it, and I am not the one making it.

I understand your position but I'm busy enough without taking that on. And as much as it bugs me that someone is skirting the rules that I choose to follow, I don't want to be directly responsible for negative things happening to anyone.

Just feels wonky.

Like I said - karma usually finds a way. I don't need to be the instrument.
;)
 
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