breeding weirdest issue i've come across - any thoughts?

lek said:
 
i don't think addition P is a good idea.   pepper plant doesn't need much P.    
 
let me tell you my methods  :party:
 
#1. get rid of old leaves (reduce to 50%).   stop feeding all kind of hormones/fertilizer for at least a week.    reduce water a bit. 
#2. give the pepper plant amino acid.  stop feeding all kind of  NPK fertilizer.  stop watering and let it wilt. 
#3. use chitosan 
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Amino acid is an important step - Supplies plenty of carbon
 
Answer is likely simpler than you realize: "Saved from a birds chilli and germinated in January 2017. Chilli was from grocery store."
 
Stores sell mostly hybrid peppers, which are pollinated by hand. A hybrid's seeds will be therefor be missing one set of chromosomes, producing inferior, or in some cases, completely sterile plants.
 
grahamsprodigy said:
Answer is likely simpler than you realize: "Saved from a birds chilli and germinated in January 2017. Chilli was from grocery store."
 
Stores sell mostly hybrid peppers, which are pollinated by hand. A hybrid's seeds will be therefor be missing one set of chromosomes, producing inferior, or in some cases, completely sterile plants.
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The more I research this, the more i realize this is likely the case. If my last ditch effort doesn't work, I will probably use it to graft on some of the other varieties i'm growing. 
 
grahamsprodigy said:
Answer is likely simpler than you realize: "Saved from a birds chilli and germinated in January 2017. Chilli was from grocery store."
 
Stores sell mostly hybrid peppers, which are pollinated by hand. A hybrid's seeds will be therefor be missing one set of chromosomes, producing inferior, or in some cases, completely sterile plants.
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Missing a set of chromosomes? Not sure what you mean by that. If it is an F2 it could have suffered some bizarre recombinations that could produce this no-flower phenotype, I've never heard of missing chromosomes in a diploid F2.
 
But you are right, it is likely that the chile from the store was a Hybrid produced from hand pollination at a seed company. I can't find any examples online of hybrid birds eye chilis, but the industry is bigger overseas and I'm not sure if I could find it either way.
 
The irradiation theory is also likely. Again, it is pretty likely that the pod was imported, and the US irradiates a lot of imported vegetables from Mexico, Vietnam, and Thailand where it could have been grown.
 
Powelly said:
 
If you explain what you disagree with a bit better, I'll be able to reply with something other than "no"
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     Why would he need to apply amino acids to supply carbon? Coco coir is loaded with it. Also, plants fix carbon directly from the air anyway - they don't utilize soil carbon in any appriciable amount.
 
Hybrid_Mode_01 said:
 
     Why would he need to apply amino acids to supply carbon? Coco coir is loaded with it. Also, plants fix carbon directly from the air anyway - they don't utilize soil carbon in any appriciable amount.
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You're correct, however it is the microbes that use soil carbon and amino acids is a very available form for them
Low soil carbon is a common cause of plants not flowering or setting fruit - the microbes use the carbon to produce other nutrients
 
I don't understand the details well enough yet to explain this further - However there is a book called "Teaming with Microbes" that you can read which explains it very well
One thing I know for certain - synthetic nutrients in soluble form reduce the number of microbes in soil and decrease the plants ability to absorb nutrients if the synthetic nutrients are not available
 
     In all my years of studying soil biology including four years working in a university plant pathology lab studying soil-borne disease have I have never heard of low soil carbon affecting plant growth or reproduction.
     Also beneficial soil microbes generally receive their energy (Carbon) via root exudates from plants. Their relationship with plants involves trading soil nutrients with plants for these energy rich molecules.
     Just out of curiosity, what are the nutrients that soil microbes produce using soil carbon?
    
 
Powelly said:
I don't understand the details well enough yet to explain this further
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So you're saying that you are just regurgitating the facts, as you'd like to believe them?
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You do of course realize that this has just deleted all credits in your credibility bank... and why I asked you earlier if you have actually done any gardening. It really sounded like you were/are preaching from a book. Like you've even just recently gotten into it. (still have that zeal and fervor of a new convert)
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For the record, your ideas are good, but the above quote is not. You really need to do better, or not start what you can't finish.
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Powelly said:
synthetic nutrients in soluble form reduce the number of microbes in soil and decrease the plants ability to absorb nutrients if the synthetic nutrients are not available
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As I've been trying to tell you in your other post, where you so forcefully tried to get me to say what you wanted to hear... It is not the aim of conventional gardening to grow microbe colonies - it is to directly supply plant nutrients. Many people who grow conventionally already know this. Mineral salts can exist in a nutrient solution, and still be compatible with microbes, however. In the case of the CNS17 Grow, that I so fervently preach to aspiring pepper growers who want ease and convenience, the nutrient contains sugars to help feed microbe populations, while still providing mineral based nutrients, in a cost effective form. Is it textbook "organic"? No, absolutely not. But does it grow a plant? Well, I know the answer to that question. Do you?
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It should not be our point to try to strong-arm others into a growing method. If someone has decided that they are going to grow with synthetics, it's time to stop talking about microbes, and accept that choice. Just like you wouldn't like someone barking at you to add Cal-Mag to your dandelion and clover mulched beds.
 
Gorizza said:
 
Missing a set of chromosomes? Not sure what you mean by that. If it is an F2 it could have suffered some bizarre recombinations that could produce this no-flower phenotype, I've never heard of missing chromosomes in a diploid F2.
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Sure. I'll explain what I mean by that. What I want to start with is what the word "diploid" means, which is literally "Two sets of chromosomes". So yeah, it stands to reason that you should never hear of a diploid with a missing set of chromosomes, because it would not by definition be one. 
 
Ok, so a quick genetics lesson. Plants (Especially peppers) are extremely good at having sex with themselves. The flowers contain what would be equivalents of both sperm (pollen) and the stigma of the plant, which can be thought of as the equivalent of eggs. Each of these things contains a single set of chromosomes. The plant becomes pregnant when some of the pollen gets in contact with the stigma, and then a fruit is grown which contains the babies. It is the plant's hope that many different locations will adopt the babies, and so evolution has helped make the fruit attractive to various animals. 
 
Anywaysssss..
 
Cross-pollination is when you interrupt the plant's furious masturbation session and introduce pollen from another species of plant. The baby will have a set of chromosomes from each parent plant. However, that new plant is only the true offspring of one of those parents, and it's pollen will be missing one set of those chromosomes. If it does start to flower, and you do not cross-pollinate again with a one of the first breeds, that plant's babies can have one of several different kinds of trouble, as typically half of any generation of plants will lack the dominant genes from the parents. The chance of successful passing of the desired dominant genes means approximately 3 out of 4 plants grown from saved seeds will be weak, or sterile. 
 
An F2 diploid would be the successful pollination of a hybrid plant to either one of the original parent plants, or a new set of chromosomes introduced from another species. The longer you keep various types of plants in proximity to each other, the more likely that you will pick up the genes from a different species. Those new plants may not contain the desired genes you hope for, that's why farmers tend to destroy the offspring of this year's crops after harvest, and why so many home gardeners have mutant plants.
 
Hybrid_Mode_01 said:
     In all my years of studying soil biology including four years working in a university plant pathology lab studying soil-borne disease have I have never heard of low soil carbon affecting plant growth or reproduction.
     Also beneficial soil microbes generally receive their energy (Carbon) via root exudates from plants. Their relationship with plants involves trading soil nutrients with plants for these energy rich molecules.
     Just out of curiosity, what are the nutrients that soil microbes produce using soil carbon?
    
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Hi
Your background is interesting - I will find this when I get home tonight
 
grahamsprodigy said:
 
Sure. I'll explain what I mean by that. What I want to start with is what the word "diploid" means, which is literally "Two sets of chromosomes". So yeah, it stands to reason that you should never hear of a diploid with a missing set of chromosomes, because it would not by definition be one. 
 
Ok, so a quick genetics lesson. Plants (Especially peppers) are extremely good at having sex with themselves. The flowers contain what would be equivalents of both sperm (pollen) and the stigma of the plant, which can be thought of as the equivalent of eggs. Each of these things contains a single set of chromosomes. The plant becomes pregnant when some of the pollen gets in contact with the stigma, and then a fruit is grown which contains the babies. It is the plant's hope that many different locations will adopt the babies, and so evolution has helped make the fruit attractive to various animals. 
 
Anywaysssss..
 
Cross-pollination is when you interrupt the plant's furious masturbation session and introduce pollen from another species of plant. The baby will have a set of chromosomes from each parent plant. However, that new plant is only the true offspring of one of those parents, and it's pollen will be missing one set of those chromosomes. If it does start to flower, and you do not cross-pollinate again with a one of the first breeds, that plant's babies can have one of several different kinds of trouble, as typically half of any generation of plants will lack the dominant genes from the parents. The chance of successful passing of the desired dominant genes means approximately 3 out of 4 plants grown from saved seeds will be weak, or sterile. 
 
An F2 diploid would be the successful pollination of a hybrid plant to either one of the original parent plants, or a new set of chromosomes introduced from another species. The longer you keep various types of plants in proximity to each other, the more likely that you will pick up the genes from a different species. Those new plants may not contain the desired genes you hope for, that's why farmers tend to destroy the offspring of this year's crops after harvest, and why so many home gardeners have mutant plants.
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Thanks for the lesson! I don't want to disappoint you, but I actually have a degree in genetics and am working on another one in Plant Breeding right now, so I mostly get where you're coming from. I enjoy the colorful analogy about self-pollination, I work with a selfing crop so I'll keep that one in my pocket.
 
One thing we should clear up is about recombination. Let me refer to this diagram:
recombination_image.png

In this example the left represents a hybrid dicot with one pair of chromosomes.  The different colors represent its parents, lets say red for the pollen donor and blue for the egg donor. The right side represents the "F2" progeny of a selfing event.  It still has one pair: two chromosomes! The offspring will have different characteristics from the parents, and this is still confusing to many biologists. The prevailing theory is called "pseudo overdominance" as explained by Dr. Jim Birchler
Birchler, J. A., Yao, H., & Chudalayandi, S. (2006). Unraveling the genetic basis of hybrid vigor. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 103(35), 12957-12958.
a little light reading from PNAS if you care: http://www.pnas.org/content/103/35/12957.full
 
I also want to criticize your use of "species." In the biological species concept, different species strictly cannot interbreed.  This is confused in capsicum because we have multiple species within "breeding complexes" but they still have (for the most part) 12 pairs of chromosomes for a total of 24. "Variety" is generally preferred I think, but it depends on discipline. Sometimes Cultivar is best, sometimes botanists will say "form" but I don't really get that.
 
NOW! maybe you were suggesting that one of the parents was one of the few x=13 n=26 capsicum species? so the the offspring might be like n=25 or something? I think thats pretty unlikely. More likely is that a recombination event took place over a flowering locus and broke something about this plant's ability to flower, or maybe to determine that it was time to flower.
 
IMO, its more likely that the food was irradiated upon entry to the US for safety purposes and a germ-line mutation was induced.
Cobalt-60 is used for food irradiation of imports from some of the countries that could have grown the bird-eye chili: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiation
Cobalt-60 is really good at inducing mutations, it was the irradiation source used for the Atomic Garden breeding efforts in the 50s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening (we have cooler techniques now, don't worry)
 
grahamsprodigy said:
Jeezum crow, how do you find time to grow things with this much typing?
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That's like asking a big fella how he finds time for crapping, when he's in the buffet line. He just does, because that's what he's good at.
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I like this new guy Gorizza.
 
Hey how come there are no GM peppers on the market? Seems like you could put a clamp on all the blight issues quickly. I would be first in line to buy seed from you.
 
grahamsprodigy said:
Hey how come there are no GM peppers on the market? Seems like you could put a clamp on all the blight issues quickly. I would be first in line to buy seed from you.
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Peppers are quite hardy when grown in the ground - maybe there is not enough viability from a commercial point of view
 
grahamsprodigy said:
Hey how come there are no GM peppers on the market? Seems like you could put a clamp on all the blight issues quickly. I would be first in line to buy seed from you.
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Because the market doesn't love GMO, at the moment. GMO favors mass commodities, like corn, where actual fortunes are made.
 
grahamsprodigy said:
It probably doesn't help that places like Hatch, New Mexico are trying to maintain their protected origin status. Lotsa old seed lines there.
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You do know that many of the Hatch varieties are available in "improved" strains, right? Those Big Jims are one of them. I think they are just as commercialized as peppers get.
 
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