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What causes Sauce separation?

-Pablo-

-Pablo-

Many of my sauces tend to separate in the bottle. It appears solids sink to the bottom, and liquids float to the top. It's not a huge deal, give it quick a shake and it's back to looking "correct". I understand many hot sauce makers add Xanthan Gum to help w/ homogenization and prevent separation as well. If there's a technique I can employ to prevent this, I'd prefer that to using an additive.

I have some sauces that don't separate at all though, and I need to figure out what I'm doing "right" to make sauces that don't separate, and what I'm doing "wrong" that causes some sauces to separate.

For reference, all my sauces are puree'd heavily and strained, typically just using pepper mash, vinegar, garlic, onion, and sometimes fruit/spices as flavoring agents. Perhaps its sugars and/or other thickening agents in the fruits? Are some peppers more prone to separation than others?
 
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Since a sauce is basically a suspension of solids, separation can happen with time as the solids settle. I've found the longer the ingredients are processed (cooked, blended, etc.) the less separation occurs. I'm surprised a strained sauce does this so readily.
 
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For instance, here's a sauce I have that doesn't separate at all. It's just Red Serrano mash, vinegar, garlic, and squeezed lime juice. I gave it a spin in the food processor, cooked it on the stove for 10 min., let it cool, and bottled it.

te0pM.jpg
 
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The suspended particles in the water/juice have a larger tendency to separate depending on their size and the liquid percentage. Just like RedtailForester indicated them longer you Process the material the smaller the particles will be and the longer they will stay suspended.

Besides the particle size; the volume of Water/Juice to organic material also causes separation. If you have a large percentage of water to organic material then no matter how small you process the pulp they will eventually separate from the water. Most pulp is of lower density then water so they will float to the top and the water will accumulate at the bottom. I am not certain why your pulp sinks.

The best thing to do is to limit the volume of water/juice you use; a good example is the vinegar. It is basically all water so it is a lot better to use crystalline acetic acid to lower the PH. That will eliminate a large percentage of the water in a sauce and make it a lot thicker all by it's self.

Luck buddy :drunk:
P.S. The gum stuff just adheres to the water molecules and makes the water harder to move through. But given enough time everything will find it own equilibrium and the solid will separate. Maybe 100 years like the twinke :lol:
 
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Balac said:
The suspended particles in the water/juice have a larger tendency to separate depending on their size and the liquid percentage. Just like RedtailForester indicated them longer you Process the material the smaller the particles will be and the longer they will stay suspended.

Besides the particle size; the volume of Water/Juice to organic material also causes separation. If you have a large percentage of water to organic material then no matter how small you process the pulp they will eventually separate from the water. Most pulp is of lower density then water so they will float to the top and the water will accumulate at the bottom. I am not certain why your pulp sinks.

The best thing to do is to limit the volume of water/juice you use; a good example is the vinegar. It is basically all water so it is a lot better to use crystalline acetic acid to lower the PH. That will eliminate a large percentage of the water in a sauce and make it a lot thicker all by it's self.

Luck buddy :drunk:
P.S. The gum stuff just adheres to the water molecules and makes the water harder to move through. But given enough time everything will find it own equilibrium and the solid will separate. Maybe 100 years like the twinke :lol:
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Oh good call w/ using crystalline acetic acid! Do you know of a good place to source it in bulk?
 
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Actually, the more I think about it... if the fruits/vegetables are also fermented to under say 3.5 pH, and the entire sauce ends up checking out under 3.5, would I even need to add acetic acid at that point? Or would it taste totally weird without it?

I may have to experiment some more with this.
 
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Pablo, have you read the Fermenting 101 thread?

I'm not very knowledgable about the fermenting process, but I don't hear of fruits being fermented very often, if at all. My feeling is that sugary fruits would ferment differently than low acid, low sugar vegetables (chiles, onions, garlic, etc). I hope others who know about this will chime in.

If the sauce is at a proper pH, you shouldn't need an acid.
 
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Yes, and it's not a good thread IMO - lots of bad information being bounced around in there. OP needs to go back and study microbiology and food chemistry more closely I think. Yes, fruits high in sugars are more likely to undergo spontaneous ethanol fermentation than lactic acid fermentation. Not a huge deal as long as the fruit is heated so the alcohol evaporates out and the yeast dies, however I'm not sure how that affects the pH levels. Now vegetables on the other hand like carrots, garlic, onions, etc... will definitely undergo lactic acid fermentation more readily, and that will lower pH to desirable levels for hot sauce production.

And yes, you're correct, if sauce is a proper pH you won't need an acid. Most of the mashes I use start out at an acceptable pH, but then the addition of flavoring agents like fruit/vegetables raises it again, necessitating an acid to bring it back inline. I was just sort of thinking out-loud about using nothing but fermented ingredients so the sauce maintains an acidic pH level and I wouldn't need to add acetic acid later.

But would that also taste weird since people are so used to acetic acid in their sauces? :halo: I want to play around with this idea more. For instance, I have a ghost chili sauce that uses ghost chili mash, carrots, onions, garlic, lime juice, vinegar, and cherries. I'm wondering if I make a fermented mash of the carrots, garlic, and onions; POSSIBLY cherries in a separate crock.... maybe I can do away with the need for vinegar and have it still taste okay?

salsalady said:
Pablo, have you read the Fermenting 101 thread?

I'm not very knowledgable about the fermenting process, but I don't hear of fruits being fermented very often, if at all. My feeling is that sugary fruits would ferment differently than low acid, low sugar vegetables (chiles, onions, garlic, etc). I hope others who know about this will chime in.

If the sauce is at a proper pH, you shouldn't need an acid.
Click to expand...
 
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Pablo, it sounds like you have a solid idea to work with. Fermenting the veggies and fruit separate is a good idea, at least to start with until the process gets dialed in. You'll just have to go for it and try a few batches. Get it consistent, that's the key to long term sauces.

I think people would like a fermented only sauce with no vinegar. Lack of vinegar taste is a bonus for many people. Keep us posted as you go.
SL
 
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RedtailForester said:
Another suggestion would be powdered citric acid for pH control. I purchased a 10 lbs. bag of the stuff on Amazon.com.
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Yup---I agree :clap:
I am used to dealing with Acetic Acid because I deal with fermentation products and ethanol is converted to Acetic Acid by "Bad" bacteria :evil: But after looking it up it seems that Citric Acid might be better. It has a lot of OH terminals and it is slightly lower in acid strength. ;)
And you can buy the stuff at any brew house or Wine suppliers. :pray:
 
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Underneath it all...gravity. This seems to bother a lot people for some reason-though I do understand the appeal commercially of having a product that won't settle-to me that usually indicates theres "other things " in there...fillers ,emulsifiers etc.Probably unavoidable commercially, but settling of contents
in homemade/small batch is no indication of poor quality or taste.
 
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If you have a really good blender you can get the particles to a micro size to where they suspend. The other suggestions here are great as well. With xanthan gum you only need 1/8 tsp. per cup of liquid, and it is natural, so not so bad. Just make sure to add it while cooking.
 
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This good to know, I rely on small size with the blender.But as I'm in the reseach stage of switching to making a commercial sauce-I guess this an aspect I didn't really consider....there is no affect on taste whatsoever?
 
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Pablo I have not had any issues when combining veggies and fruit into one mash. When I make my Jamaican sauce I put everything into one jar, add salt and starter either whey or sourdough hooch, and let it go for at least 90 days. As we're adding a lactobacillus bacteria to it and not a brewers yeast in a closed fermentation the sugars are not converted to alcohol. Even with using sourdough hooch, if some yeast were to be introduced its not enough to over take the lb at least after having made about 20 1 gallon batches and not a single one gone bad that's my experience. I would have to suggest that you try it first and see how it comes out. Making seperates mashes is one way to do it but is alot of extra steps to have to take especially if your trying to make the sauce professionally. It also is adding to your storage space requirement and the number of fermentation vessels needed. For instance if your fermentation cycle runs 90 days and you have to process 1 vessel per week that's let's say 12 vessel which is now 24. Using 5 gallon food grade plastic buckets that's alot of space and if you ferment more than one sauce you can see how your requirement for controlled storage space can quickly increase. JMHO

RM

Edit: one last thought, you might try, where you can, using dried fruit. It will give you a better control over the water content of your sauce.
 
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Thanks RocketMan! Good to hear from someone who's gone down this route. Also good call on the dried fruit idea, it's probably also much easier to source and ship this way from food suppliers.
 
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xanthan does not alter the taste at all, and does not need to be cooked.
 
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