What are people using for woozy cap liners? The person I'm working with on my sauce making process is insisting on a hermetic seal, which isn't possible with the normal liners for woozies, and I don't want to step up to larger bottles with metal caps with plastisol liners and be different than every other sauce out there. Quite frustrating, I'm pretty sure the Cholula hot sauce at my favorite Mexican restaurant has been open on the table there for months and that's OK...
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Woozy Cap Liners
- Thread starter HeirloomChef
- Start date
I don't make sauces commercially but the caps I use are the ones from specialty bottle. They are just the basic lined cap and I can tell you that it indeed does provide an airtight seal. I bottle my sauce at 185 degrees and when I turn it upside down to sanitize the cap the heat causes a vacuum to form. So when you take the cap off for the first time you can indeed hear the vacuum seal break as air rushes in. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to use the standard lined caps.
Unfortunately this is a 'show me the research to back that up' situation. I might have to go for a induction sealing system to put foil seals on the bottles.
I talked with a co-packer about this issue and the person there told me it kills them sometimes to. They recently lost a BBQ sauce prospect because of this same issue and the prospect ended up going with a company in Michigan where the process authority would sign off on it.
I talked with a co-packer about this issue and the person there told me it kills them sometimes to. They recently lost a BBQ sauce prospect because of this same issue and the prospect ended up going with a company in Michigan where the process authority would sign off on it.
salsalady
eXtreme Business
H-Chef-
get a different process authority!
One PA I used insisisted a product was acidified when I felt it was a formulated acid. Spent $50 for a different PA, they agreed with me that it was a formulated acid food, which gave it totally different processing requirements than an acidified food.
Foil liner on a hot sauce??? And how would that work if you wanted to use a dropper top?
I hate to say it, but these guys are not the gods some of them think they are. If you don't agree with the results, get a 2nd opinion. PA's will come to different conclusions when faced with the same information. And you do no HAVE to use the first conclusion you received. Go talk to someone else.
get a different process authority!
One PA I used insisisted a product was acidified when I felt it was a formulated acid. Spent $50 for a different PA, they agreed with me that it was a formulated acid food, which gave it totally different processing requirements than an acidified food.
Foil liner on a hot sauce??? And how would that work if you wanted to use a dropper top?
I hate to say it, but these guys are not the gods some of them think they are. If you don't agree with the results, get a 2nd opinion. PA's will come to different conclusions when faced with the same information. And you do no HAVE to use the first conclusion you received. Go talk to someone else.
Was your formulated acid food a hot sauce by chance? I know there is a line in the sand drawn there, but I haven't been able to get a definition of where the line is. The Ag dept person I talked to said the process authority is the one that makes that determination. They say the rules change too often for there to be an official document they could provide that would actually help you.
Sounds like I need to get a second opinion.
salsalady
eXtreme Business
Yes, it was a vinegar based hot sauce, didn't have anything "potentially hazardous" or low acid in it. It had been previously licensed as an acid food, but I changed the ratio of vinegar in the recipe. The pH was still around 3.5 but the first PA, without even looking at the ingredients, made the determination that it was an acidified food based on the ratio of vinegar to the rest of the ingredients. And then he wouldn't return any phone calls to discuss it. So after 3 months, I said...well, never mind what I was saying about that PA.....I just found another lab and continued on.
General regulations say sauces/foods must be below 4.6. But it's more the ingredients that determine how it's classified. If it has a lot of stuff like fresh garlic, fresh onion, dairy, those are major low acid items they look closely at.
The Ag department follows the recommendations of the PAs They ensure the PA's recommended process is being followed by the processor.
Mine have around 15% vinegar by volume but aren't as low in PH as yours, 3.7 and 3.85. The 3.7 one I'm waiting on more feedback on, the other one I've made for a couple of years now and I'm happy with.
Frustrating playing a game with no rules. My day job these days is designing custom computer software, I'm used to making other people understand that there have to be rules, none of this 'maybe' stuff.
Frustrating playing a game with no rules. My day job these days is designing custom computer software, I'm used to making other people understand that there have to be rules, none of this 'maybe' stuff.
salsalady
eXtreme Business
Your pH's are at a good level, way below the 4.6 target. I get them below 4.0 and haven't had any issues getting them through the PA process, even though some of the sauces have stuff like carrots in them. The sauces range from 3.0-3.8. One with butter in it required that I get the BPCS certification even though the pH was 3.6.
It is frustrating trying to get answers. The same thing happens in our state. Take the one you're happy with and get it moving forward, starting with a second opinion. Good Luck~
SL
It is frustrating trying to get answers. The same thing happens in our state. Take the one you're happy with and get it moving forward, starting with a second opinion. Good Luck~
SL
What's the difference between plastisol liners and F217 liners? Is one just as good as the other? Are they the same? Does it even matter? Thx.
salsalady
eXtreme Business
ask the distributor/seller what's the difference. I don't know off the top of my head as I've never asked that question. Ask those who sell it, it's their job to know and explain it better than some folks on a forum. Now, that is not to say that someone here won't chime in with a knowledgable answer, just saying if you don't get an accurate, reliable answer talk to those who sell what you want to buy.
There's F217, PS, HIS, and Plastisol.Stemwinder said:
F217 - A foam polyethylene center between two sheets of LDPE. (basic hot sauce cap liner)
PS - Pressure Sensitive. Circular polystyrene foam units enhanced with adhesive dots dispersed around the perimeter of the liner. When under pressure, the dots split and enable the liner to adhere to the container. (spice bottles, etc.)
HIS - Heat Induction Seal. Metallic disc and plastic film that is machine-applied only. (think ketchup in the squeeze bottle)
Plastinol - PVC gaskets attached to metal lids for glass containers that create a vacuum seal. (think salsa, ketchup glass bottle)
Im with salsalady on this one...Find a new producer! I talked to a chef that makes his own sauce for his customers and he asked me how much I paid for recipe development. When he told me "about 4 grand" I told him he just wasted about 3,500 dollars. Shop around! There's plenty of options now a days.
salsalady
eXtreme Business
I'm going to store my hot sauce in Grolsch bottles.
cool- need any help procuring empty grolsch bottles?
I'm going to store my hot sauce in Grolsch bottles.
That is a *great* idea - I love that stuff. And as a bonus you get to drink yourself to oblivion in order to have enough bottles to make a batch!
Though in the US we butcher the name - I lived in Holland for 2 years and they have a soft "G", roll their "R", use an "O" like "faux" and pronounce "SH like we pronounce "SS".
So all told it's "chgrrrrrrOlss"
This has been your Dutch lesson for today.
I realize this post is old, but perhaps I can revive it. I am facing the same issue as the original poster - my process authority is insisting on a hermetic seal for my hot sauce. They say that because it needs refrigeration after opening. However, I have now searched far and wide for a commercially available hot sauce that says "refrigerate after opening" that actually uses an induction seal. Haven't found one yet. All of them merely have a foam liner (not considered hermetic by the manufacturers of such liners) or none at all.
We are talking sauces that have several fruit or vegetable ingredients before the vinegar (not just the Tabasco types) and have no preservatives/stabilizers.
So how are the vast majority of hot sauce makers out there getting around this? It definitely puts me at a disadvantage against my competitors when I add in the time/cost to induction seal. Can anyone suggest a specific PA that understands this?
I appreciate any help I can get!
We are talking sauces that have several fruit or vegetable ingredients before the vinegar (not just the Tabasco types) and have no preservatives/stabilizers.
So how are the vast majority of hot sauce makers out there getting around this? It definitely puts me at a disadvantage against my competitors when I add in the time/cost to induction seal. Can anyone suggest a specific PA that understands this?
I appreciate any help I can get!
salsalady
eXtreme Business
Hi PureLocal, welcome to THP.
Everything I make says RAO, even though only about half the sauces actually need it. It is more if a CYA thing.
Where/who is the PA who is requiring this for you? If you feel comfortable sharing a bit about your sauce here, or in a PM to me, something might stand out.
A couple resources that are tried and true are Cornell University and UnivLincolnNebrasca. Both are experienced with hot sauce licensing. Most universities offer the same services, some dont expedite as well as others.
Everything I make says RAO, even though only about half the sauces actually need it. It is more if a CYA thing.
Where/who is the PA who is requiring this for you? If you feel comfortable sharing a bit about your sauce here, or in a PM to me, something might stand out.
A couple resources that are tried and true are Cornell University and UnivLincolnNebrasca. Both are experienced with hot sauce licensing. Most universities offer the same services, some dont expedite as well as others.
salsalady said:
Hi Salsalady,
Thank you for your reply.
I don't want to give anybody a bad rap so I'd rather not name names. It is also a university but not one of the ones you listed. I've been happy with my PA in general, but I think it's good to get a second opinion especially when the review deviates from what the standard for a product seems to be. They say that they follow Cornell's guidelines. This is what they have said:
"If you are heating the product to be shelf stable, then a hermetic seal is required. The other option would be to cold fill your product and sell as a refrigerated product. I am not sure how other processors are getting around this requirement, but we follow Cornell's same requirements and it is based on the product pH level and research studies."
My hot sauce has a final pH of 3.2 and is hot filled into glass bottles (still figuring out the closure). It uses fermented peppers but this doesn't seem to be the issue given the rules stated above. I've actually tested several store bought brands to compare and the pH is comparable (none of which contain preservatives or stabilizers and none of which were packaged with a hermetic seal).
My understanding is that (almost) all acidified products require thermal processing to be shelf stable and according to the first statement of my PA above, this would mean (almost) all acidified products sold as shelf stable need a hermetic seal. Are other PAs following different rules or is there some kind of exception that hot sauces are qualifying for?
Are your hot sauces classified as acidified?
Thanks again for your help!