As I understand it, in plant breeding terminology, there are OP and Hybrids. OP essentially meaning pollinated by natural means (including self pollination). Hybrids are a result of human manipulation (when it comes to plant breeding). OP's can be, and usually are, isolated for purity by a serious plant breeder. "Early jalapeno" is an OP variety, but breeders isolate them from other capsicum sp to retain purity in order to sell them as "Early Jalapeno" They are left to pollinate themselves or each other naturally and the offspring will still have the same traits as the parent "Early Jalapeno". "El Jefe Jalapeno" is a hybrid and is a result of humans transferring pollen from one parent to another. Even if isolated the offspring of El Jefe will not have the same exact characteristics of the parent "El Jefe". The term OP in plant breeding terminology has little to do with isolation, so don't worry when a major seed seller like Johnny's says that a certain variety is OP that it means it may not be pure or isolated, because they wouldn't knowingly sell seeds that could be impure. So OP essentially means non-hybrid, but I have seen many people on this forum and others misuse this term.
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Open Pollinated - Do you know what it means?
- Thread starter AlabamaJack
- Start date
Maybe I misuse the term. I don't have any books on plant breeding yet 
. All I know is the usage I see from amateur and professional plant breeders online. It also seems absurd to say all pepper plants are open-pollinated. I don't trust dictionaries for terms in philosophy, science, etc.
This isn't true for all hybrids. Hybrids can an do occur naturally. And when we plant breed we have to worry about it happening without our involvement.
. All I know is the usage I see from amateur and professional plant breeders online. It also seems absurd to say all pepper plants are open-pollinated. I don't trust dictionaries for terms in philosophy, science, etc.This isn't true for all hybrids. Hybrids can an do occur naturally. And when we plant breed we have to worry about it happening without our involvement.
Specifically I meant in terms of plant breeding, marketing, and selling. I am aware hybridization is a naturally occuring phenomena as well, just failed to clarify that in my post. thanks for pointing that out.
AlabamaJack
eXtreme
Bingo Potawie...
I don't think you were unclear because of the parentheses. I'm an amateur and not a scientist, marketer, or seller, but I think the way they are using it is less precise and even misleading. I think this because we get hybridization on accident when we grow while trying to keep our seeds pure. Peppers are promiscuous, which is both a blessing and a curse imo.
Yeah, personally I'd rather use the term in its scientific meaning. I don't know what it is yet though, lol. If other people want to use the commonly used meaning, that's fine.
AlabamaJack
eXtreme
the point I was trying to make is getting a little fuzzy here...I don't care how many kinds of pollination there are, and there are several...
my point is Open Pollinated does NOT mean not isolated...and when someone say's their plants are open pollinated...yup...that they are...all of the varieties I grow are open pollinated but some are isolated which is where I get my seedstock from....
simply put...when talking seed purity, use the terms Isolated and Non-Isolated...
and I do believe all pepper plants fall into the open pollination category...if I am wrong, could/would someone correct me and show me what varieties aren't?
my point is Open Pollinated does NOT mean not isolated...and when someone say's their plants are open pollinated...yup...that they are...all of the varieties I grow are open pollinated but some are isolated which is where I get my seedstock from....
simply put...when talking seed purity, use the terms Isolated and Non-Isolated...
and I do believe all pepper plants fall into the open pollination category...if I am wrong, could/would someone correct me and show me what varieties aren't?
see the first post
I don't agree the first post is the scientific meaning. I don't trust dictionaries for terms in disciplines at all, lol. I have to admit I'm a little anti-dictionary. I don't even like dictionaries for regular words. They can help, but looking at the usage is far better. They are too concise to ascertain the proper meaning for scientific terms or other terms. I tend to trust textbooks for terms like these.
"Miriam Webster says === > Open Pollination : pollinated by natural agencies (as wind or insects) without human intervention"
So this means that only hand pollination is not open pollination? if that's true, then if we cover our flowers or entire plants to prevent bees from pollinating and allow the wind to encourage the plant to self-pollinate, then it's still open pollination? I don't think that's right, but I could be wrong.
I would think that pepper plant that are hand pollinated (or manually crossed hybrids) are not open pollinated
AlabamaJack
eXtreme
the point is that the plant would pollinate itself without human intervention...human intervention just helps....yes, if the plant self pollinates, it could be an open pollinated variety...but there are some plants that self pollinate before the flower opens...and they are self pollinating also...
Sort of the common meaning is a subsection of the given definiton though.
IF open polination means that there was no outside influence - then flowers that are isolated by definition have human influence and cannot be Open Polinated.
Thus flowers that have had no outside intervention (incl isolation) according to the definition have to have been open polinated. Even if that means there is the possibility of hybridization.
AlabamaJack
eXtreme
here is an excerpt from a pretty good article...and the link to this article is...http://www.garden.or...s?q=show&id=293
What's Open-Pollinated Seed?
Bags prevent normal wind pollination of corn allowing breeders to control crossing
Open-pollinated vegetable varieties reproduce themselves in one of two ways: cross-pollination between two plants (via wind, insects or water) or self-pollination (between male and female flower parts contained within the same flower or separate flowers on the same plant). Beets, brassicas, carrots, corn and squash are cross-pollinating, and so require isolation in the field to keep varieties true. Beans, lettuce, peas and tomatoes are self-pollinating, do not require isolation and are the easiest for seed-saving home gardeners to sustain year to year.
So long as plants of an OP variety are kept isolated from different plants with which they can cross, they will produce seed that will come "true to type." In other words, the plants in the following generation will resemble the parent plants.
Many of the older strains of OPs, often refered to as "heirlooms," are not so much varieties as they are populations. In other words, individual plants within an older named variety can possess a great deal of genetic variability and may even vary in size and shape.
the last paragraph kinda plays into other discussions about the different types of 7 Pot, Scorpions, etc... "individual plants within an older named variety can possess a great deal of genetic variability and may even vary in size and shape"
What's Open-Pollinated Seed?
Bags prevent normal wind pollination of corn allowing breeders to control crossing
Open-pollinated vegetable varieties reproduce themselves in one of two ways: cross-pollination between two plants (via wind, insects or water) or self-pollination (between male and female flower parts contained within the same flower or separate flowers on the same plant). Beets, brassicas, carrots, corn and squash are cross-pollinating, and so require isolation in the field to keep varieties true. Beans, lettuce, peas and tomatoes are self-pollinating, do not require isolation and are the easiest for seed-saving home gardeners to sustain year to year.
So long as plants of an OP variety are kept isolated from different plants with which they can cross, they will produce seed that will come "true to type." In other words, the plants in the following generation will resemble the parent plants.
Many of the older strains of OPs, often refered to as "heirlooms," are not so much varieties as they are populations. In other words, individual plants within an older named variety can possess a great deal of genetic variability and may even vary in size and shape.
the last paragraph kinda plays into other discussions about the different types of 7 Pot, Scorpions, etc... "individual plants within an older named variety can possess a great deal of genetic variability and may even vary in size and shape"
Not pollinated by human intervention, it doesn't say without any human influence. Humans influence just about everything these days
Our working definition used intervention. I posit that placing super glue on a flower is intervention, as would be putting a flower inside a baggie, or the entire plant beneath tulie or some similar cloth.
Perhaps its time we get them to update the definition? They change the definitions of things every year, if we mailed them a letter (or multiple letters) they might change it to reflect our position.
How would we need to change it so that it doesn't rule out human activities related to preserving a plants genetic purity?
I think AJ's last post sums it all up perfectly. I almost think that, that info should be "Pinned", to clear up a common misconception.
So...
Isolated: kept in a closed off location/greenhouse during flower or only one variety was grown on/near the lot
Open pollinated: bees were allowed to pollinate the flowers
Netted: bees were not allowed to pollinate the flowers but the plants were still exposed to wind
Closed pollinated: flowers were sealed off from wind/insects
Uncontrolled pollination: no attempt made to isolate plants from wind or insects
Hand pollinated: plants have male reproductive parts removed and are pollinated by hand
Self pollinated: the flower pollinates itself without help from insects/wind or another flower's pollen
Do I have this right? So technically uncontrolled pollination is a subset of open pollination but open pollination isn't specific enough?
I feel like the vast majority of growers don't have the ability to isolate types very well so open pollinated just seemed right to describe lack of reproductive control in general. Would netting be OP since you block insects but the flowers remain open to wind (however? trivial this difference may be as potawie pointed out)? Flower gluing and gel capsules would essentially isolate the flower used on so THAT FLOWER would not be OP correct?
Sorry for all the questions you just bring up some interesting points on terminology AJ I just want to get it right!
Isolated: kept in a closed off location/greenhouse during flower or only one variety was grown on/near the lot
Open pollinated: bees were allowed to pollinate the flowers
Netted: bees were not allowed to pollinate the flowers but the plants were still exposed to wind
Closed pollinated: flowers were sealed off from wind/insects
Uncontrolled pollination: no attempt made to isolate plants from wind or insects
Hand pollinated: plants have male reproductive parts removed and are pollinated by hand
Self pollinated: the flower pollinates itself without help from insects/wind or another flower's pollen
Do I have this right? So technically uncontrolled pollination is a subset of open pollination but open pollination isn't specific enough?
I feel like the vast majority of growers don't have the ability to isolate types very well so open pollinated just seemed right to describe lack of reproductive control in general. Would netting be OP since you block insects but the flowers remain open to wind (however? trivial this difference may be as potawie pointed out)? Flower gluing and gel capsules would essentially isolate the flower used on so THAT FLOWER would not be OP correct?
Sorry for all the questions you just bring up some interesting points on terminology AJ I just want to get it right!
Heh, that's a tricky part. That's why a basic text book would be helpful. It could explain the term and what is considered human intervention. Do they consider putting bags on flowers human intervention in plant breeding?
Thanks for reinstating the point you want to get across. I think it's more precise to say isolated and non-isolated. And when I bag my flowers or encase my plant, I will simply state I isolated the plant or flower by doing x.
Perhaps if no attempt is made to isolate, we should just say uncontrolled open polination? Or even Non-Isolated OP.
But then we must also define Isolated vs Non-Isolated....
When buying seeds alot of people consider Isolating them, simply putting one plant on one side, vs the other plant on the other side of ones property... Considering the range of bees, this is nearly pointless.
Perhaps we need to add an additional modifier - Mechanicaly Isolated, vs Isolated vs Non-Isolated.
M.I. Would mean that glue, tulie, netting, etc was used.
Range Isolated Would mean safe distance guidelines were adhered to (a few miles no?).
Non-Isolated would mean no attempt was made whatsoever.
Also if one were to say range Isolation - should the range used be included?
The same with Mechanical Isoaltion - IE glue is going to be more effective than tulie, as will plastic baggies.
But then we must also define Isolated vs Non-Isolated....
When buying seeds alot of people consider Isolating them, simply putting one plant on one side, vs the other plant on the other side of ones property... Considering the range of bees, this is nearly pointless.
Perhaps we need to add an additional modifier - Mechanicaly Isolated, vs Isolated vs Non-Isolated.
M.I. Would mean that glue, tulie, netting, etc was used.
Range Isolated Would mean safe distance guidelines were adhered to (a few miles no?).
Non-Isolated would mean no attempt was made whatsoever.
Also if one were to say range Isolation - should the range used be included?
The same with Mechanical Isoaltion - IE glue is going to be more effective than tulie, as will plastic baggies.