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Anyone know of a Purple Colour Cap. Frutescen

RobStar said:
Flowers are the basis of the species concept in botany.  
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There is hardly a difference between c. annuum and c. frutescens flowers, but the purple really hints at c. annuum thrown in the mix.
 
"Numerous annuum cultivars display multiple flowers per node"
 
This isn't typical for c. annuum. If we can find a purple c. annuum with multiple nodes, we might have an idea what was thrown in the mix.
 
"he annulus of the calyx is genrally cited as the distinguisihing feature - it can be well-developed or not but generally it is a starting point."
 
True.
 
"The pic is of a plant with an annulus. C. frutescens does not have an annulus. C. annuum does."
 
Which pic shows this?
 
This is becoming more and more confusing the deeper you dig (read: more you increase sample size!)
 
I had a good look at a load of plants yesterday afternoon:
 
  • De Arbol (C. annuum) has a very well developed annulus
  • Petit marseillais (C. annuum) has a very well developed annulus - on some flowers
  • All other C. annuum did not have an annulus but rather the very typical funnel-shaped calyx with the veins as distinct ridges ending in prominent teeth extending 1mm+ beyong the opening of the calyx.
  • All C. chinense had an annulus
  • Some C. frutescens had an annulus, others did not - this is on the same bush!
  • C. chinense and C. frutescens have a salver-shaped calyx with rather insignificant teeth.
  • C. chinense (all in my collection) have involute petals (margins roll inwards towards the anthers)
  • C. frutescens have revolute petals (margins roll backwards)
  • C. frutescens has tiny greenish flowers that are somewhat glossy - look like they are varnished
  • C. chinense has medium to small flowers, white to pale green.
  • C. annuum var aviculare (=C. annuum var glabriusculum??) or tepin/bird pepper has small white flowers - comparable in size to the larger C. chinense range.
  • Other C. annuum varities have medium to large flowers
 
OK now for the baccatum gang:
  • C. baccatum var baccatum has erect pedicels that crook like C. frutescens.
  • C. baccatum var pendulum has flowers that are borne pendulous or laterally
  • var baccatum flowers smallish
  • var pendulum flowers large
  • var baccatum leaves paper-like in texture, dull green, small (approx. 6cm x 3cm, rapidly tapering from midpoint)
  • var pendulum leaves leather-like, dark green, large (approx. 13cm x 8cm, tapering only about 2cm from tip)
  • var baccatum fruits thin walled
  • var pendulum fruits very thick walled.
Erratum:  there is one Capsicum hybrid that ripens to purple - Piment de Neyde.  It is a hybrid between C. annuum and C. chinense.
 
The foliage of the plant in question is what throws me somewhat.  It is very C. chinense-like.  However it is possible that it can be attributed to it being a hybrid - recombination of genes that has expressed itself as that particular foliage (amongst others)
 
The more I look at it, the more I am thinking that this is a multiple hybrid.  I am hovering around C. annuum x C. baccatum x C. chinense.  That is the only way I can adequately encompass all the traits exhibited by this gorgeous thing.
 
I wonder if an accidental cross (ornamental c. annuum x baccatum or frutescens) from a garden crossed with a wild pepper. Purple isn't a trait we find often in the wild. Where was this pepper found again? I think there is frutescens in the mix because people report the pepper falls off the calyx like one, and I see frutescens traits (however, these can be seen in other species). I think the three species it crossed with are: c. annuum x c. baccatum x c. and c. frutescens. The fruit exhibits no c. chinese characteristics. Small c. chinese pods are spherical and stay on the calyx as do c. annuum and c baccatum. Larger c. chinese pods would likely distort the erect, conical-ish pods. Of course it isn't impossible that it's the species combo you think it might be, Rob.
 
Edit:
 
What do you think of c. praetermissum x c. chinese Rob? That's less species and might explain the flower. Praetermissum falls right off the calyx. I'm baffled by this cross. I cannot explain the pod shape though. The calyx wouldn't look that way unless it was a 3 way with praetermissum as well.
 
Nobody shredded anything Rob. You have thrown an inordinate amount of info and options at this in hopes of being right.I'm not sure how that is simplifying it?

This variety has frutescens traits. They do have annular constriction of varying degrees. Sometimes you just have to grow the plant and read less. I have read a lot about the RSA,learned about it in school,have seen 100s of pics. I have no idea what it is like though.

I would not put my prized hen on the block or any type of monetary value,but it is silly to rule frutescens genes out 100%.

Here is a similar one,PI322717.


Cabai Burung Putih:

http://fataliiseeds.net/search?query=pi+322717
 
Dulac I think you could be on the money there.  I don't know of any attempts to cross chinense and baccatum var praetermissum - although it does cross very easily with frutescens.  And frutescens to me is so close to chinense that they should be joined in matrimony.  Like you I am baffled. But I think you're close!
 
Prodigal it's not about throwing info at a problem in hopes to cover your arse.  It's about finding the combination of traits exhibited.  I know of more crap created by botanical horticulturists than horticultural botanists.  Horts love to categorise every little thing as something new.  Botanists like to investigate and analyse and base the answer on the best fit.
 
The pic you post is also not frutescens.  It is most likely baccatum.  No frutescens has markings.  It is much like telling me that Aji Amarillo is a chinense because you want to believe it is so.  What we want to believe and what is are often very different things.  I'm not slagging you.  I can only evaluate what i see before me.  And that pic is not frutescens.
 
If frutescens is involved in this hybrid then it happened a very long time ago and almost all of it has been bred out.  The sum of chacters leads me to believe that it has nothing to with frutescens at all. 
 
I'm going to be growing both of these varieties (now the ambiguity interests me more). I plan to cross them with eximium for certain traits, then backcross to preserve eximium traits. Both baccatum and frutescens will work, but I don't know about an annuum hybrid of the two or less. Cabai Burung Putih looks very much like baccatum, but it could have something else in it. 
 
 
Edit: just noticed the purple filaments in the Cabai Burung Putih flower, which is a hallmark (excluding purple annuums) of c. frutescens. What do you make of the filaments Rob?
 
Edit again: c. praetermissum also has purple filaments. Perhaps it's a c. praetermissum. I have some that have flowers without the purple. Perhaps they crossed with baccatum in the wild. They fall off the calyx easily. very odd pods for a c. praetermissum if it is though.
 
Edit again: I'm not sure if the plant I'm talking about is a c. praetermissum. I've never seen anything like it.
 
hogleg said:
It ripens to red, I believe. The pictures above show red and I kinda remember Cila telling me that also.
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yes, it ripens red
Too much information for me to digest;  summary?  Is it frutescent?

& thanks for the robust discussion here Ryan, Robstar and Prod :P
 
justecila said:
yes, it ripens red

Too much information for me to digest;  summary?  Is it frutescent?

& thanks for the robust discussion here Ryan, Robstar and Prod :P
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NP. It's most likely a hybrid with capsicum annuum. I suspect there is c. frutescens but not sure. If there is, then it's a hybrid with at least 3 different species.
 
I didn't get these seeds until almost may,so quite a bit behind. Hope I can get some mature fruit.
 
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Prod, your photo is always stunning!
 
Thought I add a bit of confusion here.  This is CBU flower.  I regrow this variety season just past.  Seeds of which came from a different source.  This taken my interest as the pods colourations during maturity appeared different.  Then I had not noticed its flowers has no markings.
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Hmmmmm hybrid introgression! The dominant genes are expressing. This is an F2 or higher.

Hybrids are confounding things.

Nonetheless still beautiful.
 
RobStar said:
Hmmmmm hybrid introgression! The dominant genes are expressing. This is an F2 or higher.

Hybrids are confounding things.

Nonetheless still beautiful.
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Rob, this is not from the source of my 1st source of CBU.  I got seeds of this 12 months later and decided to grow it the next year.  Btw your package is ready to be posted tomorrow and I included this CBU out of interest !
 
RobStar said:
 
 
Prodigal it's not about throwing info at a problem in hopes to cover your arse.  It's about finding the combination of traits exhibited.  I know of more crap created by botanical horticulturists than horticultural botanists.  Horts love to categorise every little thing as something new.  Botanists like to investigate and analyse and base the answer on the best fit.
 
The pic you post is also not frutescens.  It is most likely baccatum.  No frutescens has markings.  It is much like telling me that Aji Amarillo is a chinense because you want to believe it is so.  What we want to believe and what is are often very different things.  I'm not slagging you.  I can only evaluate what i see before me.  And that pic is not frutescens.
 
If frutescens is involved in this hybrid then it happened a very long time ago and almost all of it has been bred out.  The sum of chacters leads me to believe that it has nothing to with frutescens at all. 
Click to expand...
 
Rob, I don't think this is like floriculture,or ID'ing cut flowers in a greenhouse environment,we are talking about plants coming from coastal jungles of South America,some of the most diverse regions on earth.More and more of these plants are being leaked as we speak. I'm all for using Flowers to ID these guys,but I also think old science dies hard. Without sequencing,we are all guessing,you also. I have 400 to 500 photos of baccatum var baccatum from 6 plants that I have grown and they all look different,from the flower shape,plant structure,on and on. The only thing they have 100% in common is the color of the streaking on the flower,not even the pattern of it.
 
I would like your opinion on the flower posted below. I do enjoy and respect your knowledge and opinions and I'm looking forward to what you think.
 
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Awesome discussion, really piqued my interest in such things.  Thank you all.   :)
 
Note:  I really want to f**k that flower you just posted PS lol 
 
:shocked:
 
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