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CK's, GA's and Auxin
- Thread starter Captain Capsaicin
- Start date
Capsicum
Banned
Hey science is science. If you can't understand so be it.
I am making a point of how they are not needed and there is more imortant things to focus on. Liebig's law is there to back what i am saying.
"A nutrient that is able to limit plant growth according to Liebig's law of the minimum, is considered an essential plant nutrient if the plant cannot complete its full life cycle without it. There are 17 essential plant nutrients."
If you did not give auxins to a plant, the plant would produce it like always. If you had 0% Calcium for the plants life you would have problems. This proves how needed Calcium is as to adding hormones thus proving how little they do when added.
Capsicum
Banned
Yea a scientist showed my Liebig's law, it helped me understand plant nutrition more.
Still looking for the book with the table I am thinking of, but I found some info in Peppers: Vegetable and Spice Capsicums. Keep in mind this is a book targeted at commercial production of peppers
"Flowers drop when night temperatures are above 24C." 24C = 76F
"When the night air temperature is lower than 16-21C there is a marked increase in fruit setting." 21C = 69F
"The optimal temperature for pollen germination is 20-25C." 68-77F
There is also a section on growth regulators that talks about GA.
"Young pepper plants treated with gibberellic acid (GA3) before the initiation of floral organs produced abnormalities in subsequently formed flowers."
There is no mention of the effect of GA on mature plants. There are brief discussions of uniconazole and ethephon (effects vary depending on does and timing of application). Indoleacetic acid and benzyladenine (both for lateral growth) were not effective even at high concentrations.
Finally, while looking around for the magical table (that I now think I may have just imagined) I found a very recent paper on the use of growth regulators specifically to increase yield. The most effective substances in that study were triacontanol at 5 ppm and 2,4-D at 2 ppm. See http://www.nepjol.info/index.php/JIAAS/article/viewArticle/697 for the full results.
"Flowers drop when night temperatures are above 24C." 24C = 76F
"When the night air temperature is lower than 16-21C there is a marked increase in fruit setting." 21C = 69F
"The optimal temperature for pollen germination is 20-25C." 68-77F
There is also a section on growth regulators that talks about GA.
"Young pepper plants treated with gibberellic acid (GA3) before the initiation of floral organs produced abnormalities in subsequently formed flowers."
There is no mention of the effect of GA on mature plants. There are brief discussions of uniconazole and ethephon (effects vary depending on does and timing of application). Indoleacetic acid and benzyladenine (both for lateral growth) were not effective even at high concentrations.
Finally, while looking around for the magical table (that I now think I may have just imagined) I found a very recent paper on the use of growth regulators specifically to increase yield. The most effective substances in that study were triacontanol at 5 ppm and 2,4-D at 2 ppm. See http://www.nepjol.info/index.php/JIAAS/article/viewArticle/697 for the full results.
Capsicum
Banned
Chances are the control may have not been getting all needed macro and micronutrients...
They can help in that case....
Example:
Zinc Functions: Production of Auxins, an essential growth hormone.
As you can see it is the macro and micronutrients that play the biggest role....
I suppose that is possible, but in this case it seems unlikely. The study was university sponsored and performed by researchers under controlled conditions. You are claiming that these researchers failed to control for some very basic parameters of horticultural science and for me to believe that you are going to have to produce some sort of evidence.
Capsicum
Banned
I would need to see evidence that they in fact gave every needed macro and micronutrient.
Again zinc for example plays the roll of making auxins.
I used to be big on Amino Acids. I used to argue with someone who is a botanist, telling them how much this amino product (botanicare sweet) would increase yield, taste, ect.... Well, he laughed at me and said if plants are getting all macro / micronutrients the amino acids will not help much. He further explained the product I was using had sulfur in it, the sulfur in the product was doing more then the amino. He then showed me Liebig's law, which helped me further understand.
From experience of growing indoor cherry tomatoes I used a bunch of additives like the hormones, amino acids, ect... Then I dropped all that and just used a 3-part synthetic hydroponic fertilizer and with a calmag added and increased yield. the increased Calcium and Magnesium was what the plant was lacking, adding it increased yield-Liebig's law http://en.wikipedia...._of_the_minimum
millworkman
Extreme Member
There is a very fine line when it comes to these things and if you are using a pre packaged product then its not going to work as well as mixing pure solutions yourself.
25% sure seems substantial to me...
25% sure seems substantial to me...
In agriculture there is always more than one way to skin a cat (how's that for a mixed metaphor?). I am just sharing some research that addresses the original question and provides details of which compounds at specific concentrations with a particular application schedule produced increased yields. Almost all academic studies are about techniques for extensive agriculture where you are growing thousands of plants in an open field or large greenhouse. I assume everybody here is engaging in intensive agriculture where only a few plants are grown and are cared for much more frequently (sometimes too frequently). The point is if you are growing 4 plants in pots you can control every aspect of the soil and maintain perfect growing conditions. If you have 20 acres of peppers in the ground that you are going to sell at a profit so your family can eat, you need to be more pragmatic. If somebody up at the ag extension tells me there is some fairy dust I can spray on my crop that will raise my costs 4% but will increase my yield by 20% I am going to be down at the fairy dust vendor pronto.
I am all for organic methods, but if somebody wants to grow a franken-plant that is 10' tall and makes thousands of pods using biochemical witchery I say go for it.
I am all for organic methods, but if somebody wants to grow a franken-plant that is 10' tall and makes thousands of pods using biochemical witchery I say go for it.
Capsicum
Banned
I am NOT a pro grower, I am a hobby grower. I like making fertilizer programs simple and effective for other hobby gardeners like myself. I would never suggest using those additives, thats not to say don't use them, I just have to say how much the basic macro and micronutrients make up the foundation and is the building block to plant production. I do this based on the many products that are grown using NO hormones have high levels of nutrition and yield as it is.....
I had read Liebig's Law albeit I was unaware of the name. Here's what I don't understand. Many plants have a seedling stage followed by a vegetative stage. The plants can receive identical conditions and when they're ready growth explodes. Different sub-species exhibit differential growing patterns when exposed to identical conditions. Different needs hence different rate limiter? I doubt it. They'll get to different sizes before growth slows. What accounts for this? Genetics. I'd guess that a decent portion of the genetics to which I'm referring are various hormones. To that end, research aside, I have a real hard time believing that exogenous hormone administration does nothing to enhance or inhibit growth. I'm certainly not an expert so feel free to explain to me how I'm an "idiot" who is missing the obvious. That may well be.
Going back to hormones and fruit set. A year ago I would have gone hog wild with research. At the moment, between a 5 month old baby and a relatively new job my time is rather limited. It seems that there are a huge number of factors which come into play. The species of plant, the timing of the administration, the manner in which the hormones are applied (to whole plant or directly to buds), the concentration of the spray, the plants' environment and of course the combination of hormones.
Based upon my limited, inadequate research I've ordered Bonide Tomato & Blossom Set Spray. It contains the cytokinin kinetin. I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do with it once it arrives. I'll probably start with my 7 Pot in the pot as by so doing I can administer without the product contaminating my garden. I still don't know the degree of concern which this merits.
Going back to hormones and fruit set. A year ago I would have gone hog wild with research. At the moment, between a 5 month old baby and a relatively new job my time is rather limited. It seems that there are a huge number of factors which come into play. The species of plant, the timing of the administration, the manner in which the hormones are applied (to whole plant or directly to buds), the concentration of the spray, the plants' environment and of course the combination of hormones.
Based upon my limited, inadequate research I've ordered Bonide Tomato & Blossom Set Spray. It contains the cytokinin kinetin. I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do with it once it arrives. I'll probably start with my 7 Pot in the pot as by so doing I can administer without the product contaminating my garden. I still don't know the degree of concern which this merits.
So I got my fruit set spray yesterday. I'm starting out with my 7 Pot in the pot. I heavily sprayed all of the flowers as well as the unopened buds. With the current heat wave I'd be seriously impressed to get any new pods. For the time being I'm refraining from applying it to my plants in the ground. I'll post my results.
More leafy growth is what you want. It helps shade the plant so it stays cooler, catches more sun for more energy to grow stems/forks/sites/buds/pods. You might find you drop fewer flowers with more water and nitrogen.
The cost:benefit (or time:benefit) ratio is poor for anything done to plants more than throwing some 10-10-10 fertilizer on and watering them, provided you started out with decent soil (and/or compost added to make it good). My total seasonal cost per pepper plant (besides DIY compost, water, and twine to tie them up to survive wind) is roughly 15 cents. It blows my mind how much some people pay for what nature does well on its own.
Let's look at it the other way. You want the plant to try to produce buds sooner and grow peppers instead of stems and leaves but suppose it were to produce 200% more peppers right now. What would happen? They'd all be undersized and take forever to grow because you don't have enough leaf area to supply energy to grow the fruit. That is, if you can keep it from dropping blooms. Even if you can't, for every new bit of stem growth you get a fork with twice as many sites for new blooms.
The cost:benefit (or time:benefit) ratio is poor for anything done to plants more than throwing some 10-10-10 fertilizer on and watering them, provided you started out with decent soil (and/or compost added to make it good). My total seasonal cost per pepper plant (besides DIY compost, water, and twine to tie them up to survive wind) is roughly 15 cents. It blows my mind how much some people pay for what nature does well on its own.
Let's look at it the other way. You want the plant to try to produce buds sooner and grow peppers instead of stems and leaves but suppose it were to produce 200% more peppers right now. What would happen? They'd all be undersized and take forever to grow because you don't have enough leaf area to supply energy to grow the fruit. That is, if you can keep it from dropping blooms. Even if you can't, for every new bit of stem growth you get a fork with twice as many sites for new blooms.