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Different pepper names?? Different variant?? Same pepper??
- Thread starter BDBeatz
- Start date
My take on this, and let me preface this by saying that i'm not a geneticist, nor a farmer, nor really anyone qualified to give anything more than my self-educated opinion, is that what you have there is probably just some typical variation between pod phenos. I'm assuming that the seeds came from a plant that had similar variation, and if you saved the seeds from those pods, next year's plants would show similar variation. (I think the strategy would be to save seeds only from the best pods, in hopes of getting your strain more likely to throw correct-pheno pods.... I have seen this advice repeated often, but i cannot tell if it's real science or just some conventional wisdom, but that IS how i was selecting seedstock from SB pods I bought at the TFM....)
To me, an unstable cross would be if that plant was producing pods that were markedly different from the parent plants, and/or if seeds saved from those pods produced plants that had markedly different pods from the ones on this plant. Eg, red parent plant with orange pods from this plant, or realllly hott parents with milder pods in the next generation, et cetera. I think it's important to note that growing conditions (soil, weather, nutes, etc...) can impact pod size, shape, flavor, etc so there could be other factors beyond the concept of "instability."
In a nutshell, what I am talking about is when some grower crosses (or believes he has crossed) Chile Q by Chile R, and loves the pods from that first generation of the cross. In a case like that, he may be tempted to feel like he's awesome, and name the new "strain" something cute, and sell/trade/gift the seeds out, only to be surprised that the F2 plants throw pods that look or taste markedly different. I'm all for ppl experimenting with crosses, but it's going to take several generations of careful selection to "set" anything. And, in the meantime, it seems more responsible (to me, and who am i, really, to dictate these things?) for the grower to refer to the strain he's working on as Chile Q x Chile R, rather than some cute name that offers no clues as to the parent varieties of the cross.
Make sense?
To me, an unstable cross would be if that plant was producing pods that were markedly different from the parent plants, and/or if seeds saved from those pods produced plants that had markedly different pods from the ones on this plant. Eg, red parent plant with orange pods from this plant, or realllly hott parents with milder pods in the next generation, et cetera. I think it's important to note that growing conditions (soil, weather, nutes, etc...) can impact pod size, shape, flavor, etc so there could be other factors beyond the concept of "instability."
In a nutshell, what I am talking about is when some grower crosses (or believes he has crossed) Chile Q by Chile R, and loves the pods from that first generation of the cross. In a case like that, he may be tempted to feel like he's awesome, and name the new "strain" something cute, and sell/trade/gift the seeds out, only to be surprised that the F2 plants throw pods that look or taste markedly different. I'm all for ppl experimenting with crosses, but it's going to take several generations of careful selection to "set" anything. And, in the meantime, it seems more responsible (to me, and who am i, really, to dictate these things?) for the grower to refer to the strain he's working on as Chile Q x Chile R, rather than some cute name that offers no clues as to the parent varieties of the cross.
Make sense?
The_NorthEast_ChileMan said:
So I have a question about non-stable crosses.....Note the circled pods in the pic below - white has no waist - black semi-waisted and red showing a fully formed waist. Looking for input/thoughts/opinions.... Is this an example of un-stable cross or just natural variation? I know that even Jals vary somewhat on the same plant but?
You'll note not all pods circled...the one in upper left looks fully waisted and the two in upper right semi waisted. I'll let you judge the others.
No it is not a sign of instability for sure.
You will only see the signs in future generations , but the pods on one plant does not predict the genetic traits of the seeds in those pods.
Just as the pod that has been cross pollinated looks the same as the other pods, but carries different DNA.
It does seem that younger crosses, fewer generations, have more phenotypic variation.
You will only see the signs in future generations , but the pods on one plant does not predict the genetic traits of the seeds in those pods.
Just as the pod that has been cross pollinated looks the same as the other pods, but carries different DNA.
It does seem that younger crosses, fewer generations, have more phenotypic variation.
The_NorthEast_ChileMan said:
No. You can only see the stableness of a chili by comparing the offspring of it, if the offspring plants are different (e.g. different looking chilies), then the parent is not stable. All chilies on a single plant will be from the same DNA, wherefore differences will be due to other reasons. I.e. normal variations.
Crossing 2 plants e.g. PdN x Bhut will result in endless combinations of the parental traits in F2 and later generations. I.e. provided the parent plants have the same traits, the F1s will all be the same, but each F2 plant will inherit a random set of of traits from the parents and therefore all be different.
BDBeatz said:
Bhuter said:
willard3 said:
I'm copying and pasting this (below) text from another forum. Originally written by Mark in NJ, aka "njmmadude." I thought it'd be pretty relevant here. It's more than a few years old, but here it is anyway:Bicycle808 said:
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I love Scotch bonnets, but I hate trying to find them.
The thing that gets to me about scotch bonnets, is the damn morphological characteristics that define them as scotch bonnets. Now, if you go on chileplants.com, and you look at the picture of a scotch bonnet yellow, you will see that they look like a woman's head with a bonnet on it. Ha! Evidence to support the nomenclature! If you look, however, at the scotch bonnet red, it looks like an habanero after a wrestling match with a bowling ball, or a caribbean red with an identity crisis.
Pink scotch bonnets are yellow and orange scotch bonnets aren't 'true' scotch bonnets but are yellow, but look nothing like the yellow scotch bonnets which are 'true', and sort of a deep gold. At least they are C. chinense.
The scotch bonnet, tobago sweet, is not sweet, it's hot as hell.
In fact, you have congo black habaneros, which are the same as chocolate habaneros, which are different from chocolate congo peppers, yet both have the name congo in them. Congo pepper is a term given to peppers by Trinidadans, but the congo black habanero isn't from Trinidad (it also isn't black). It also isn't from the Congo region of Africa. The congo red, however, is from Trinidad, as well as the is Trinidad pepper, which doesn't have the name congo in it. You have Trinidad scorpions, Trinidad purples, Trinidad reds and Trinidad bird peppers. No mention yet of congo peppers. You have scotch bonnet peppers, yellow are the only ones shaped like a bonnet, right? Well, unless you are looking at a Jamaican red, otherwise known as a red mushroom pepper, which is an annuum anyway, so it can't be a scotch bonnet. Go figure.
Scotch bonnet reds aren't shaped like bonnets but Jamaican reds are, jamaican hot chocolates aren't and neither are chocolate scotch bonnets. Habanero is a term given to peppers from Mexico, except for Caribbean red habaneros, which aren't from Mexico, they're from the Caribbean, and they were red (someone was paying attention). You have orange habaneros, red habaneros, yellow habaneros, mustard habaneros, and golden habaneros. You have golden habaneros which ripen to orange, mustard habaneros which ripen to golden, golden habaneros which ripen to yellow, and yellow habaneros which are gold, and shaped like fatalii peppers, which aren't supposed to be from Africa, because chinenses aren't native to Africa, but are, like the safi.
One particular seed distributor has a lot of peppers in his garden that go in as one variety and come out renamed when they bear seed.
If this makes sense to you read this carefully: if I had six fingers on each hand I wouldn't turn thirty until I was thirty-six, I wouldn't turn fourty-five until I was fifty-four, and I would singlehandedly turn thumbwrestling into an olympic sport.
I think the people who created the naming systems for chinenses were trying to make money and drive everyone crazy at the same time. I'm sticking with annuum, baccatum, chinense, frutescens and pubescens for a while.
HAJ said:
I believe you're mistaken. While the treatise I'm about to quote is about tomatoes they are in the same Family, Solanaceae (Potato), tomato family tree - pepper family tree.
Please review all three pages of this excellent example of "crossing" two different varieties and the resulting differences in progeny that occur (And I would highly recommend everyone reading this bookmark it as I return to it often.).> Tomato Gene Basics As you can see on page two, with each generation the crossed genes can be segregated through growing out multiple (The author uses 128 for the article.) plants randomly choosing seeds from the fruit. According to what I read, eventually the randomly chosen seeds will be growing one trait or the other and you simply choose the plants with the trait you want. At least that's the way I read it?
Bicycle808 said:
Perfectly!
`
The_NorthEast_ChileMan said:
Sorry, my answer was too short. It is a fairly complex topic, and it needs a more pages to get all the details right. The full potential of the cross is seen in F2, where you can get all (viable) combinations. Once you start selecting (and thereby deselecting), you will narrow down the combinations. The main problem is when you have both a dominant and a recessive version of the same gene/trait. Then the plant will only express the dominant gene, wherefore you cannot know if the recessive gene is also present or not.
Fyi. I have made multiple crosses and have a few F5s growing now.
HAJ said:
Hence, the need to carefully select over multiple generations.
I can completely understand your confusion.BDBeatz said:
Many hybridizers may seem to be making the same cross, but with different Ghost peppers so the the genetics may be different from the start, even though appearing to be the same cross... we have to keep in mind there are is more than one Ghost pepper as well as colors range from Black to Purple to White and everything in-between it seems.
So the specifics of a cross may vary even if they look on the surface to be the same.
Now if you look at the fact that domestic peppers have 24 chromosomes that gives us 4,096 different combinations in the gametes of the pollen alone. Now combine that with the combinations possible in the ovules and you now have 16,777, 216 combinations just given independent assortment of the chromosomes never mind chromosome crossover/recombination.
I concur, pictures can often be misleading. Pictures represent the phenotype of a hybrid and many genotypes which may be different can result in the same phenotype (look). As the genotype is shuffled each generation you get a can get a phenotype that is not the same to pop up as the phenotype is the expression of the genotype.BlackFatalii said:
There are many different PDN x Bhut crosses out there. Pimenta Leopard and Pink Tiger are two of them. So they are both PDN x Bhut crosses, but they show different characteristics. Pimenta Leopard ripens more red for example, while Pink Tiger is more of a purple and cream color. Also, Pink Tiger is often pictured with purple stripes, but from what I have read on THP, most growers don't get the stripes, just a purple and cream coloration on the pods.
This is why we can get a chocolate color out of a red for for instance, as the stay green genes are recessive that cause that chocolate color.
Given enough shuffling of the chromosomes i.e. a large enough grow out and you would see those recessives expressed early on in the f2.
I just wish I could get my entire post to post... I think I made it too long my friend or some such as I've had to break it up into chunks and still haven't got my 3 page reply out.Ruid said:PollenNut uses a number three pencil.
So, for whatever reason it wasn't working before... I'll try to chop this up into bite size pieces.
So the number of seedlings in your filial generations is of paramount importance.
If your filial generations only number 1-10.... you might take longer than someone else whose filial generations numbered over 1000 per generation for instance... you might not. Independent assortment does not guarantee things will become homozygous simply because we have made a cross and have grown up the next generation. We could continually pick out the heterozygous forms as those forms might visually appeal to us.
That brings us to culling. When we cull, we have to have enough seeds to ensure that the culling has merit. This is particular importance if the trait we are working for is a quantitative trait or involves multiple recessives.
We want to try to cull as early on in the process as we can, but late enough so that we don't miss out on traits that might not express until later.
If your filial generations only number 1-10.... you might take longer than someone else whose filial generations numbered over 1000 per generation for instance... you might not. Independent assortment does not guarantee things will become homozygous simply because we have made a cross and have grown up the next generation. We could continually pick out the heterozygous forms as those forms might visually appeal to us.
That brings us to culling. When we cull, we have to have enough seeds to ensure that the culling has merit. This is particular importance if the trait we are working for is a quantitative trait or involves multiple recessives.
We want to try to cull as early on in the process as we can, but late enough so that we don't miss out on traits that might not express until later.
Pepper-Guru
Extreme Member
Right? Better for throwing trolls and dumb dumbs off his trail. Haha!Ruid said:PollenNut uses a number three pencil.
Pepper-Guru
Extreme Member
Great info here.PollenNut said:
I'm just going to jump into this fray and hope the intent is seen as I truly do feel for what is happening in the pepper community.
Hybridizers love to create and see new things for the first time. It is like magic each time a batch of seedlings starts popping like grass out of the containers and we can see lilac stems, purple stems, dark leaves, purple leaves, splotched variegated leaves... mottled and so forth.
So, when I see different phenotypes being presented for a red pepper, such as I have seen with two red peppes labeled C3P0 by more than one vendor, I try to contact that hybridizer to find out what the standard is.
What was Michael Christenson's , the hybridizers, vision?
I'm told that the red is a Darth Maul variant, Mustard is C3P0, green is Yoda, and so on...
So, we have two different vendors that are selling red peppers which neither one of which even looks the same to the other vendors peppers... so I know someone has to be wrong on the shape as well, but yes... the color is also off.
Remember, red is Darth Maul according to the hybridizer.
This brings us back to standards and consistency. When you're selling a hybrid, you want to make certain your pepper is the same color and shape as the one shown by the hybridizer. Different shapes, colors, and so on from one vendor to another should be a warning sign that neither vendor even looked at or asked for the standard from the hybridizer.
Upon further investigation, I find out that the C3P0 sold by one of these vendors is nothing more than a renamed Jigsaw pepper the vendor relates.
Well, if I want renamed peppers, I can rename them myself when they come to my house. I want to know what I'm buying. If there is controversy about the origin of a pepper, like the Datil pepper has controversy.... I want to be told the different stories.
I want to know that some believe the Datil came by way of Minorcans to St. Augustine and some believe that the Datil originated from Cuba..... let me hear both stories and present a clear and stable standard that I can shoot for in my grow from one vendor to the next that matches the hybridizers description.
Don't tell me how many filial generations you have grown out without telling me how many seedlings where in each generation.
Each generation carries the weight of the numbers of seedlings in that generation that were grown and grew to the same phenotype.
Essentially, 100 generations of 1 seedling could still be heterozygous and not breed true. That is because of independent assortment.
A better indicator of whether a plant is true breeding and stable is someone telling you, I've grown this for some time and for the last 3 generations consisting of 100 seedlings I've gotten reliable phenotypes that all look like this... and then you see pictures of the different phenotypes/variables within that standard.
You show me what the leaf looks like, the calyx... especially if it is bleeding, and the flower. So many forget to post pictures of the flower. All of that helps us to see what the standard is. Is it a productive plant? We can see that by a picture of the entire plant in fruit.
When we rob a hybridizer of his hybrid by calling a red Darth Maul a mustard C3PO we suck the fun and the magic out of it and we lose hybridizers.
If we are simply selling renamed Jigsaw peppers as Darth Maul or C3PO then we are in the business of renaming peppers and I might as well buy 5000 Takanotsume seeds and label each seed with a unique name and sell to the masses as new is better right?
We should not get offended when someone asks about the heritage of a pepper. When someone asks why a UFO was sold as Capsicum chinense and it is related that is how it was sold to them... well that is the mark of someone being honest.
If I'm sold a pepper as C. chinense 'UFO' , then I turn around and sell it as C. chinense 'UFO' I am being honest as that is what it was sold to me as. At least that is the story I have been told by Matthew Arthur as he related how he purchased the original UFO as C. chinense 'UFO' from Terra Time and Tide in Jacksonville, Florida. So, wee need to preserve this heritage. We need to respect the information and the standards. We need to know what we are talking about when it is obvious to so many what is going on.
Hybridizers love to create and see new things for the first time. It is like magic each time a batch of seedlings starts popping like grass out of the containers and we can see lilac stems, purple stems, dark leaves, purple leaves, splotched variegated leaves... mottled and so forth.
So, when I see different phenotypes being presented for a red pepper, such as I have seen with two red peppes labeled C3P0 by more than one vendor, I try to contact that hybridizer to find out what the standard is.
What was Michael Christenson's , the hybridizers, vision?
I'm told that the red is a Darth Maul variant, Mustard is C3P0, green is Yoda, and so on...
So, we have two different vendors that are selling red peppers which neither one of which even looks the same to the other vendors peppers... so I know someone has to be wrong on the shape as well, but yes... the color is also off.
Remember, red is Darth Maul according to the hybridizer.
This brings us back to standards and consistency. When you're selling a hybrid, you want to make certain your pepper is the same color and shape as the one shown by the hybridizer. Different shapes, colors, and so on from one vendor to another should be a warning sign that neither vendor even looked at or asked for the standard from the hybridizer.
Upon further investigation, I find out that the C3P0 sold by one of these vendors is nothing more than a renamed Jigsaw pepper the vendor relates.
Well, if I want renamed peppers, I can rename them myself when they come to my house. I want to know what I'm buying. If there is controversy about the origin of a pepper, like the Datil pepper has controversy.... I want to be told the different stories.
I want to know that some believe the Datil came by way of Minorcans to St. Augustine and some believe that the Datil originated from Cuba..... let me hear both stories and present a clear and stable standard that I can shoot for in my grow from one vendor to the next that matches the hybridizers description.
Don't tell me how many filial generations you have grown out without telling me how many seedlings where in each generation.
Each generation carries the weight of the numbers of seedlings in that generation that were grown and grew to the same phenotype.
Essentially, 100 generations of 1 seedling could still be heterozygous and not breed true. That is because of independent assortment.
A better indicator of whether a plant is true breeding and stable is someone telling you, I've grown this for some time and for the last 3 generations consisting of 100 seedlings I've gotten reliable phenotypes that all look like this... and then you see pictures of the different phenotypes/variables within that standard.
You show me what the leaf looks like, the calyx... especially if it is bleeding, and the flower. So many forget to post pictures of the flower. All of that helps us to see what the standard is. Is it a productive plant? We can see that by a picture of the entire plant in fruit.
When we rob a hybridizer of his hybrid by calling a red Darth Maul a mustard C3PO we suck the fun and the magic out of it and we lose hybridizers.
If we are simply selling renamed Jigsaw peppers as Darth Maul or C3PO then we are in the business of renaming peppers and I might as well buy 5000 Takanotsume seeds and label each seed with a unique name and sell to the masses as new is better right?
We should not get offended when someone asks about the heritage of a pepper. When someone asks why a UFO was sold as Capsicum chinense and it is related that is how it was sold to them... well that is the mark of someone being honest.
If I'm sold a pepper as C. chinense 'UFO' , then I turn around and sell it as C. chinense 'UFO' I am being honest as that is what it was sold to me as. At least that is the story I have been told by Matthew Arthur as he related how he purchased the original UFO as C. chinense 'UFO' from Terra Time and Tide in Jacksonville, Florida. So, wee need to preserve this heritage. We need to respect the information and the standards. We need to know what we are talking about when it is obvious to so many what is going on.
I didn't touch on this, but Darth Maul is one of those cases in which two different peppers carried that name... so that is another thing we have to contend with... sometimes things like that happen as well.
Accidents happen, things happen.
It is how we deal with these insights that either helps our community or hurts our community.
Hybridizers make mistakes, vendors make mistakes, we are all human.
Accidents happen, things happen.
It is how we deal with these insights that either helps our community or hurts our community.
Hybridizers make mistakes, vendors make mistakes, we are all human.
Pepper-Guru
Extreme Member
PollenNut said:
I agree 100%.
Anyone that's been around long enough has seen the fly by night vendors and even bigger ones run wild with what they sell and claim to sell. Most of the responsibility lies with the vendors, but it doesn't stop there. The consumer/hobbyist has to be educated and privy to the correct way to make selections. A true, healthy distrust in vendors over the last 20 years has shaped my practice as it should everyone else's that asks these type of questions. "Peppers with different names"
Pepper-Guru
Extreme Member
Regarding the common names, or common renaming and applying the same common name to many different peppers across any given similar group - that's the lazy and irresponsible way to handle things. It takes away so much from all the different heirloom and landrace peppers out there. Doing it based on appearances or shapes is irresponsible and often highly inaccurate as well, especially considering the person labeling or referring to many fruits under one umbrella term hasn't grown them all to notice the differences, knows where each name has come from and why, or tasted, even tasted them all for that matter. Nor have they done ANY traveling to KNOW FIRST HAND.
I'll riff on this a bit now..... There's a reason why Ubatuba Cambucci isn't a Bishop's Crown, isn't a Aji Flor, isn't an Orchid, isn't a Monk's Hat, isn't a Campana. Why? Well for starters they all have slightly different regions of "modern origin", different histories on how, when and for how long they've been in the village they are in, etc. Case in point; The Campana I field collected in Costa Rica has 0 heat, where as every Bishops Crown I've grown can be quite hot. One has four lobes damn near every single pod, one has three. Plant growth structures and vigor are different. One coming from Barbados, one from Costa Rica, one from Brazil so on and so forth. Versions? Maybe, sure. Still not the same pepper, period. Too much genetic material has changed between them all over time, regardless of how "similar" they look.
There is a reason why if you find yourself born in Belgrade and sent off to the market for Kurtovska Kapijas (for your grandmothers famous ajvar) and you come back with Szegedi instead, there will be much explaining to do! The Kurtovska Kapijas is sought after for its composition, little water content, and thin skin that's easy to peel, so no other Paprika for ajvar will do. But they are all Paprika right? Wrong...paprika is an arbitrary term used to describe a spice made from large, sweet, red ANNUUM peppers. So you see, with so much nuance and genetic shuffling, it becomes a slippery slope when people go throwing around any old name they want to label a species of any given continent under one huge umbrella, justifying their renaming because they do "research" from their living rooms.
I'll riff on this a bit now..... There's a reason why Ubatuba Cambucci isn't a Bishop's Crown, isn't a Aji Flor, isn't an Orchid, isn't a Monk's Hat, isn't a Campana. Why? Well for starters they all have slightly different regions of "modern origin", different histories on how, when and for how long they've been in the village they are in, etc. Case in point; The Campana I field collected in Costa Rica has 0 heat, where as every Bishops Crown I've grown can be quite hot. One has four lobes damn near every single pod, one has three. Plant growth structures and vigor are different. One coming from Barbados, one from Costa Rica, one from Brazil so on and so forth. Versions? Maybe, sure. Still not the same pepper, period. Too much genetic material has changed between them all over time, regardless of how "similar" they look.
There is a reason why if you find yourself born in Belgrade and sent off to the market for Kurtovska Kapijas (for your grandmothers famous ajvar) and you come back with Szegedi instead, there will be much explaining to do! The Kurtovska Kapijas is sought after for its composition, little water content, and thin skin that's easy to peel, so no other Paprika for ajvar will do. But they are all Paprika right? Wrong...paprika is an arbitrary term used to describe a spice made from large, sweet, red ANNUUM peppers. So you see, with so much nuance and genetic shuffling, it becomes a slippery slope when people go throwing around any old name they want to label a species of any given continent under one huge umbrella, justifying their renaming because they do "research" from their living rooms.
For some reason I can't seem to get my post to actually hit the page...
PepperGuru
"Anyone that's been around long enough has seen the fly by night vendors and even bigger ones run wild with what they sell and claim to sell. Most of the responsibility lies with the vendors, but it doesn't stop there. The consumer/hobbyist has to be educated and privy to the correct way to make selections. A true, healthy distrust in vendors over the last 20 years has shaped my practice as it should everyone else's that asks these type of questions. "Peppers with different names"
So what can we do as hobbyists to make better decisions and promote the spread of useful information? Also, could you tell us more about how this has shaped your practice? This touches on a few topics I wanted to discuss in my other thread. What guidelines would you pass on to the less experienced or less diligent growers if you had the chance?
PepperGuru
"Anyone that's been around long enough has seen the fly by night vendors and even bigger ones run wild with what they sell and claim to sell. Most of the responsibility lies with the vendors, but it doesn't stop there. The consumer/hobbyist has to be educated and privy to the correct way to make selections. A true, healthy distrust in vendors over the last 20 years has shaped my practice as it should everyone else's that asks these type of questions. "Peppers with different names"
So what can we do as hobbyists to make better decisions and promote the spread of useful information? Also, could you tell us more about how this has shaped your practice? This touches on a few topics I wanted to discuss in my other thread. What guidelines would you pass on to the less experienced or less diligent growers if you had the chance?