tutorial Fermenting Peppers 101

[NoVa Hothead]

Beer yeast doesn't affect the ph to the same degree as LB, it allows you to use ingredients with low flavor impact that affect the ph. For example, apple juice is a primary component of my mash. You can't taste the apples in the sauce, but when cooking peppers down in apple juice, it lowers the ph. Then, the yeast eats the sugar from the apple juice. As anyone that's made apple wine will tell you, the flavor of apples after fermentation is very subtle, which is why you can't taste it in the sauce.

I use a kolsch yeast.

To stress, my goal is to taste the peppers. I don't want to taste vinegar. I don't want to taste salt. I don't want to taste sour. I want to taste the peppers, and this does the trick.

 

[PepperJunky]

Bottled five gallons of apple "wine" yesterday.

Have patience with me please. If the yeast doesn't affect the pH to the same degree as LB, then what is it doing for preservation? The alcohol from the yeast from the sugar from the apple juice is the preservative?

 

[2p0p]

Beer yeast doesn't affect the ph to the same degree as LB, it allows you to use ingredients with low flavor impact that affect the ph. For example, apple juice is a primary component of my mash. You can't taste the apples in the sauce, but when cooking peppers down in apple juice, it lowers the ph. Then, the yeast eats the sugar from the apple juice. As anyone that's made apple wine will tell you, the flavor of apples after fermentation is very subtle, which is why you can't taste it in the sauce.

I use a kolsch yeast.

To stress, my goal is to taste the peppers. I don't want to taste vinegar. I don't want to taste salt. I don't want to taste sour. I want to taste the peppers, and this does the trick.

Hi Nova...Could you explain your process...and what is its shelf life at room temp. before the yeast takes over and stamps its own flavour on your sauce...or do you use sulfur dioxide or other such 'halting' chemicals to arrest the yeast at a certain point (as in the wine industry) , or do you just like the taste of the Ethanol/alcohol produced by the yeast sugar relationship ?. I am very curious ...

 

[RocketMan]

Ok,I've read and reread this about 4 times to make sure I wasn't missing something and, please correct me if I'm wrong but your using apple juice as an ingredient in your sauce and cook the ingredients to a point prior to pitching the yeast to the mash just as we boil the wort prior to pitching yeast in beer. There is something in the cooking process that causes the apple juice to lower the ph of the mash and then the yeast converts the sugars in the apple juice thus removing the apple flavor in your final sauce giving you a sauce with proper ph with out any sourness to it. Just the wonderful flavor of the peppers and other ingredients you've used.

I'm raising 1 eyebrow and thinking "fascinating"

 

[-Pablo-]

Yeast works differently. LB produces acids, which creates additional ph impacts as a preservative. I use beer yeasts, which allow you to use ingredients that will decrease ph, but not produce a sour flavor like LB does. I make sauces that are perfectly safe from a ph standpoint, but taste like the peppers themselves, instead of something else. Different process, different results. IMO, a better tasting product.

To stress, my goal is to taste the peppers. I don't want to taste vinegar. I don't want to taste salt. I don't want to taste sour. I want to taste the peppers, and this does the trick.

Too late man, these guys are WAY ahead of you.

To answer the question of why I don't recommend yeast (ethanol fermentation) for hot sauce making... I'd prefer not to add explosive diarrhea to my list of hangover symptoms the morning after consuming alcoholic hot sauce.

Seriously though, for anyone interested in the biochemistry of fermentation and how commercial hot sauces are made, you should probably disregard this thread entirely and instead read Pasteur's Etudes sur la Bière. More directly, understand how specific types of microorganisms cause specific types of fermentations and specific end-products. Then you'll have a better understanding of why methods of probiotic fermentation are typically used in commercial hot sauce, kimchi, sauerkraut, yogurt, cheese, etc... and why ethanol methods are not.

This reference section is also a good place to start - http://en.wikipedia....n_(biochemistry)#References

Bottled five gallons of apple "wine" yesterday.

Have patience with me please. If the yeast doesn't affect the pH to the same degree as LB, then what is it doing for preservation? The alcohol from the yeast from the sugar from the apple juice is the preservative?

Pure ethanol production by itself will technically do nothing to alter pH as it is a neutral molecule - http://en.wikipedia....-base_chemistry

Ethanol fermentation requires the absence of lactobacillus to take place. So unless you're sterilizing your containing vessels using chemical agents the way beer brewers do, and boiling your mash/peppers for a long time to kill most of the bacteria that will inhibit ethanol fermentation, ethanol fermentation will not readily take place, and you're likely actually experiencing lactic acid fermentation anyway. Lactobacillus bacteria is generally undesirable in beer brewing, and that's why such precautions are taken to make sure ethanol fermentation isn't inhibited by it. Lactic acid will lower your pH reading after returning to room temperature.

 

[wheebz]

god damnit

i had this entire shit written up

but as far as its concerned


Ethanol Production by a sacc yeast strain, as you designate as brewers yeast, which you say that you use, will ABSOLUTELY affect the pH of a finished product

and ethanol fermentation does not require a LACK OF LB to take place, in fact LB will actually attentuate farther some of the complex sugars that a designated, and I say that with regard, a designated sacc yeast strain can do

And as far as a Lacto strain being undesireable in beer, well it depends on the beer doesnt it, or did you not know that almost all of the flanders region in Belgium AND the berlinerweiss beers are produced using a lacto yeast to promote a sour characteristic, in fact the RELY on lacto to produce a "sour" mash in order to aid in the lowering of the pH of the mash, and inevitably the wort of said beer to produce the characteristics they are known for

 

[-Pablo-]

god damnit

i had this entire shit written up

but as far as its concerned


Ethanol Production by a sacc yeast strain, as you designate as brewers yeast, which you say that you use, will ABSOLUTELY affect the pH of a finished product

No, this is 100% incorrect. A basic understanding of organic chemistry would be helpful before making such claims. Ethanol for use in alcoholic beverages, and the vast majority of ethanol for use as fuel, is produced by fermentation. When certain species of yeast metabolize sugar they produce ethanol and carbon dioxide. The chemical equations below summarize the conversion:

C[sub]6[/sub]H[sub]12[/sub]O[sub]6[/sub] → 2 CH[sub]3[/sub]CH[sub]2[/sub]OH + 2 CO[sub]2[/sub]

C[sub]12[/sub]H[sub]22[/sub]O[sub]11[/sub] + H[sub]2[/sub]O → 4 CH[sub]3[/sub]CH[sub]2[/sub]OH + 4 CO[sub]2[/sub]

You'll notice nowhere in this equation is H+ or OH- formed. There are no acids/bases and accompanying precipitates formed, and pH remains unchanged. Now if you're talking about other unintended processes, then sure those can affect pH. Hell simply heating/cooling the solution will change pH to some degree. You'll note grain alcohol is roughly 7.33 pH - about the same as water.

and ethanol fermentation does not require a LACK OF LB to take place, in fact LB will actually attentuate farther some of the complex sugars that a designated, and I say that with regard, a designated sacc yeast strain can do

And as far as a Lacto strain being undesireable in beer, well it depends on the beer doesnt it, or did you not know that almost all of the flanders region in Belgium AND the berlinerweiss beers are produced using a lacto yeast to promote a sour characteristic, in fact the RELY on lacto to produce a "sour" mash in order to aid in the lowering of the pH of the mash, and inevitably the wort of said beer to produce the characteristics they are known for

Yes, I'm quite familiar with lambic ales as I've brewed many. My favorite was a blueberry lambic. However, LB is only introduced after primary fermentation/hopping has mostly finished as the lactic acid would otherwise create a hostile environment for the yeast - thus inhibiting ethanol fermentation.

However, this thread isn't about beer brewing, it's about fermentation for the purposes of hot sauce making. One uses yeast, the other uses LB; and many in this thread seem to confuse the two - including the OP who mentioned "For a wild fermentation you are going to collect the wild yeast that is in the air and use it to ferment the peppers" when he clearly meat collect wild lactobacillus. The continued mention of the use of Sourdough "hooch" only served to further the confusion since it's a specialized type of bread that uses both LB and breadmaking Yeast.

In reality, for LB fermentation all you really need is live yogurt culture runoff, or a day exposed to the air. Unless you just really want to make bread, there's no need to go through all the trouble of making sourdough "hooch".

 

[wheebz]

So you are telling me that pH doesnt change during the fermentation process?

Let me ask you a question

Have you ever measured the pH of the wort before and after fermentation?

Cause I have, in fact, I have a degree Brewing Technology and Biochemistry from Doemens Academy in Munich Germany, and I can assure you with a 100 percent GUARANTEE that the pH of fermented beer compared to the pH of unfermented wort is nowhere near the same

You are also wrong about the LB creating a harsh environment for the yeast due to it producing lactic acid

Berlinerweisse beers have always and will always be soured before fermentation, reducing the pH by usually an entire point. Sacc strains can still ferment them perfectly fine with the reduced pH.

IN FACT, I have seen sacc strains still ferment as low as a 3.2pH level in wort prior to fermentation ini labratory settings

And you are also wrong about LB being added only post fermentation

I have made beer with a blended 50/50 mixture of a 550 series trappist yeast strain and a LB Delbruki culture, and used it for primary fermentation, not to mention Cantillon uses natural cooling and open fermentation, which allow wild yeast and bacteria such as LB and Pediococcus for primary fermentation, and has been doing it for hundreds of years, and produce the most highly regarded geuzes and lambics on the planet

 

[-Pablo-]

So you are telling me that pH doesnt change during the fermentation process?

Let me ask you a question

Have you ever measured the pH of the wort before and after fermentation?

Cause I have, in fact, I have a degree Brewing Technology and Biochemistry from Doemens Academy in Munich Germany, and I can assure you with a 100 percent GUARANTEE that the pH of fermented beer compared to the pH of unfermented wort is nowhere near the same

I think we're talking about two different things here. You're saying pH changes during beer brewing. Nobody is arguing this. I'm saying the pH changes are not caused by the ethanol reaction. As I said earlier, ethanol is pH neutral, and pH can change due to other peripheral processes in brewing. Hell, just changing temperature can affect pH. Given your background seems to be in functional brewing techniques I supposed I can understand why you would be confused about this.

You are also wrong about the LB creating a harsh environment for the yeast due to it producing lactic acid

Berlinerweisse beers have always and will always be soured before fermentation, reducing the pH by usually an entire point. Sacc strains can still ferment them perfectly fine with the reduced pH.

IN FACT, I have seen sacc strains still ferment as low as a 3.2pH level in wort prior to fermentation ini labratory settings

And you are also wrong about LB being added only post fermentation

I have made beer with a blended 50/50 mixture of a 550 series trappist yeast strain and a LB Delbruki culture, and used it for primary fermentation, not to mention Cantillon uses natural cooling and open fermentation, which allow wild yeast and bacteria such as LB and Pediococcus for primary fermentation, and has been doing it for hundreds of years, and produce the most highly regarded geuzes and lambics on the planet

No. Of course they interact on various levels in small amounts, but once LB fermentation has taken hold, my experience has been that ethanol fermentation is greatly inhibited and my wort is ruined. Although you do bring up good points about various yeast strains and their varying tolerances to acidic environments, so maybe this has to do more with the variants of yeast I'm using?

Anyway, since this thread is about fermentation in the context of hot peppers and not beer brewing, continuing to harp on the subjects of yeast and ethanol fermentation will only serve to confuse people. So in the spirit of the thread's original intent, here's some pictures of a couple pepper mashes I put together a few nights ago. One is pure cayenne mash I'm going to do wild fermentation on, the other is a mix of red jalapeno, cayenne, trinidad 7-pot, and a bit of bhut jolokia mash as a starter.

 

[PepperJunky]

So you're adding salt to the top as an air barrier?

 

[-Pablo-]

So you're adding salt to the top as an air barrier?

It's not necessarily an air barrier. The salt ends up dissolving in the moisture and trickling down into the mash. This isn't a set-and-forget method of creating a mash, I have to baby it a little at first. Once the brine starts to be absorbed into the mash, I have to stir it up every so often, and "burp" the jar every few days to release some of the gas. Lactic acid fermentation doesn't produce nearly as much CO2 as ethanol fermentation so you can get away with a setup like this. The lid has a rubber surround, and doesn't let much air in besides what's already in there. Once the mash starts settling, I'll put a weight on top of the mash to keep it under the brine (usually 1-2 weeks in)

 

[PepperJunky]

The weight on top is where I went wrong. I tried a ziplock with water in it, but it just didn't work well because of the size and shape of the jars I was using. I'd like to see the weight you use if you don't mind shooting up a pic sometime.

Great stuff, Pablo!

 

[-Pablo-]

You know, I really don't know why people use such wide-mouthed vessels for fermentation. Myself included. It seems like it would be much better to have a smaller surface area with potential contact to the air, no? Something like a milk jug or a beer growler? That way you could keep the mash under the brine much more easily right?

I might try that with the next batch I do.

 

[PepperJunky]

The problem (for me anyway) is how to keep the weight on top. If you have a small neck like a growler, how would you do this?

 

[-Pablo-]

The problem (for me anyway) is how to keep the weight on top. If you have a small neck like a growler, how would you do this?

That's a very good point, I hadn't thought of that.

 

[PepperJunky]

When I make sauerkraut, I use a big glass jar with straight sides. Makes it easy to put a plate on top, then weigh that down with a jar of water or whatever. I think my next time, I'll use the straight-sided jars like you're using, and carefully cut a plate down to that size, or find something else dish-like to put on top that I can weigh down.

I won't stop until I get a fermented hot sauce! Just had a thought, too- the thought was stuck in my head that I'll have to wait until next year's pepper crop is done in order to try again. Negative! I'll do something wild and crazy - go to the store and buy some dang peppers!

 

[-Pablo-]

If you make a hot sauce out of it, just don't forget that you've already salted the mash! Adding salt after the fact during sauce making screwed me up a while back when my sauce recipe came out entirely too salty to use. ACK!

 

[RocketMan]

Best weight I've used yet is a hop sack filled with glass beads. Boil it to steralize and drop it down on top of the mash. the beads will move to fit any size neck.

 

[PepperJunky]

Very cool idea!

 

[DiggingDogFarm]

I elimination the air space all together.

I ferment in 1/2 gallon wide mouth Ball canning jars. Quarts work too.
I fill the jar with goods to within an inch or so of the rim.
I weigh down the contents with a clear glass tea candle holder.
Watch the size on these, many are a bit too big to fit. I got mine at Dollar General.

I them top off the jar to the rim with brine, and set a canning lid on top (no ring) held in place with a weight.
Place the jar in a container to catch potential burp.

No air space, no problems.