Fire in a box!

[laserguy]

ThePepperGrowingMan, I'm sorry if you feel this poor, defenseless seed company is being "bashed" by us "mean" consumers.

I laid-out my concerns, and the reasons for them, rather precisely.

And if a company is justifying high prices with deceptive marketing practices, then yes, I would have a problem with that.

I have noticed that this is not the first time you have rushed to this company's defense. But if you bothered to actually read my post and the referenced links before jumping to conclusions, you would have noticed that a good number of these complaints were in fact from customers! And that one of my concerns was a company responding to complaints by attacking others, including it's own customers.

And that contrary to your erroneous conclusions, if you had bothered to read first, you would have noticed that WickedMojo is, in fact, a customer of Pepper Joe's! -

I got some seeds from him this year, Taz Habs and Atomic Starfish, they all sprouted already so I will have to let ya know if I got hosed or not after they start budding, should know then atleast if they are chinense or annum

Its also worth noting that this customer actually had an open mind about this company early last year...it wasn't until after he had a chance to grow-out his peppers that his opinion of this company changed so dramatically.

Of course, that this company appeared to have gone to the trouble of scavenging thru this poor guy's Profile Page (his url does not appear in his sig), just to dig-up any dirt they could use to publicly discredit their own customer and dismiss his opinion of their company, is probably not helping to improve customer relations either!

In any event, arguments based mainly on pricing is a straw man, as my concerns extend well beyond that.

Nor does your claim that the only valid concerns are only "magically" visible to customers hold up. If, for example, a company is making fraudulent claims on their web site, you don't have to be a customer to see that.

For example, if a company were to claim the "Tepin" they sell is really the world's hottest pepper, based on some screwy heat scale involving a kitchen blender that the seed company owner named after himself, I don't need to be a customer to know someone is full of B.S.

Nor does the argument that this is some poor, defenseless member with a small company that is being "picked on" by us "mean" consumers hold water - this is an established, famous seed company that has been around for many, many years.

If I make a negative observation about eBay sellers, or Reimers, are you going to accuse me of "picking on" them too?

In any event, as I already stated, I don't think these guys are as bad as Hirts or Reimers. But they do have some serious concerns that need to be corrected before they will get off of my "Naughty" seed vendor list!

 

[armac]

Thank you everyone for all of your advice, and help. I just placed my order with pepperlover, and purchased:
-Chocolate Bhut Jolokia
-Bhut Jolokia Red
-Dorset Naga
-Trinidad Scorpion Yellow

AND I'm getting some black pearl pepper seeds from armac!

You have about 60 black pearl seeds in the mail, they are from fresh red pods. If you plan on storing them, make sure you dry the seeds first.


Enjoy

 

[ThePepperGrowingMan]

Hey I'm not going to go point by point laserguy and I have read your post and all of the related threads over time. I'm not jumping to anyone's defense, just pointing out how anyone has yet to post about an issue they had as a customer that pepper joe has not rectified to their satisfaction. Wmojo was in the powders/peppers business for awhile (assuming he's not any more) so it would be easy to make the same argument about him as you are about pepper joe, seems to be going out of his way to discredit the guy. Not sure why you care one way or the other...you're not a customer so your opinions on this subject are nothing more that opinions based on what other people have written and your uninformed interpretation of joe's business. Whatever floats your boat...Joe's the bad guy trying to rip off the pepper growing world and I'm the bad guy because I keep asking who exactly has he ripped off.There's a reason why companies like Amazon only let people who have actually purchased a product write a review about that product...

edit - would also love to hear about wmojos experience with the seeds you quote him on here. I've grown both (actually my neighbor grew the taz habs) and the experience, from order to harvest, was great.

 

[Omri]

Please keep this a friendly debate. I don't like where this is heading.

Thread moved to the right place.

 

[laserguy]

ThePepperGrowingMan, just because you disagree with the resulting conclusions, does not mean you can dismissively blow off statements of fact as mere "opinion", let alone "unsubstantiated opinion".

Pepper Joe's did the same to their customer WickedMojo, when instead of addressing the actual issues he raised, they blew-off all of his concerns with the statement -

You're entitled to your opinion...mine is much different

Is that how you honestly think a company should respond to complaints by one of their own customers?

A fact is a fact.

The fact that Pepper Joe's is currently selling Bhut claiming that it is "THE HOTTEST PEPPER IN THE WORLD" is not my opinion, it is a FACT.

The fact that at the same time they are claiming this, Pepper Joe is asking for Naga Viper seeds on his member page is not my opinion, it is a FACT.

The fact that two THP members from The Bahamas "called him out" for re-naming Fish Pepper to Bahamas Seafood Pepper is not my opinion, it is a FACT.

The fact that Pepper Joe's has now added "aka the Fish Pepper" to this variety on their web site is not my opinion, it is a FACT.

The fact I have heard people complaining about Pepper Joe's re-naming peppers for as long as I've been growing peppers is not my opinion, it is a FACT.

The fact that a good # of THP members have made negative comments about this firm (including multiple members that stated they are customers of Pepper Joe's), is not my opinion, is is a FACT.

That's just a few of the facts, but I think you get the idea.

It seems that you are enthralled with this company, and it has become clear to me that there is nothing I could say that would change your mind.

That is fine, everybody is entitled to their own viewpoint.

But just like I did not discourage RouteBound from expressing his differing views, I likewise expect others with a different perspective not to try to dissuade me from expressing my own views about this company!

Not sure why you care

This is the second time I've seen them respond to THP member complaints with a combination of self-serving promotional spamvertising & links, combined with nebulous attacks against others. Cory asked for our thoughts about this company, so I told him.

Speaking of which, Trippa made a very interesting point in his post just before mine (#37)...

 

[laserguy]

...And I can honestly say that Judy is awesome...I've bought wholesale seeds from her too...but some of the other companies that I've seen mentionioned, I totally disagree with. I've seen poor service, slow deliveries, and cross-pollinated seeds from these companies several times.
I'll put Pepper Joe's up against any of them and let our customers decide. Besides, we're also all 100% "Made in the good ole' USA"....

Would you please elaborate on who you are meaning in regards the bold text??

That way people here can make up their own mind if you are being honest about this based on their personal experiences. That would only be fair wouldn't it??

Trippa, you make a very valid point!

Other than Judy, only three "other companies" were recommended to Cory by members in this thread.

He said "companies" (plural), so the attack was directed at at least two of them.

As far as I know, only one of those three is based outside of the USA?

It is coincidentally also the company that was most widely recommended by THP members in this thread as a better alternative to Pepper Joe's?

Given the "hints" he dropped, the implication seems pretty clear - his attack was directed at (along with at least one other) - The Hippy Seed Company.

Given the severity of their attack (would YOU want to do business with an overseas seed vendor after reading that?), I think that Neil(?) should be given the opportunity to respond to these accusations.

Pepper Joe's should also tell us the name of the other company he was referring to, as the other two will be under a cloud until the targets of this nebulous public attack against his competitors is clarified.

The questions it raises in customers' minds (which of the "other companies" mentioned was he talking about?) is the reason that ethical seed vendors do not engage in these sorts of nebulous attacks.

 

[pepperjoe]

Trippa, you make a very valid point!

Other than Judy, only three "other companies" were recommended to Cory by members in this thread.

He said "companies" (plural), so the attack was directed at at least two of them.

As far as I know, only one of those three is based outside of the USA?

It is coincidentally also the company that was most widely recommended by THP members in this thread as a better alternative to Pepper Joe's?

Given the "hints" he dropped, the implication seems pretty clear - his attack was directed at (along with at least one other) - The Hippy Seed Company.

Given the severity of their attack (would YOU want to do business with an overseas seed vendor after reading that?), I think that Neil(?) should be given the opportunity to respond to these accusations.

Pepper Joe's should also tell us the name of the other company he was referring to, as the other two will be under a cloud until the targets of this nebulous public attack against his competitors is clarified.

The questions it raises in customers' minds (which of the "other companies" mentioned was he talking about?) is the reason that ethical seed vendors do not engage in these sorts of nebulous attacks.

Lazerguy Dave,
If I have a complaint on Neal at Hippy Seed that I feel that strongly about (or ANY other company), I'll contact him direct as a customer should do...not bash a compamy that I respect in a public forum right away.
Several people have made that clear to you that it's the proper way to handle an issue.
Not go on the assault.
That makes it look personal instead of business.
You're doing what we called in coprorate America as 'Piling on' trying to get me to discredit competitors or pulling Trippa back into the thread.
I'm not going there...but will certainly address your issues directly.
Great Gardening,
Pepper Joe

 

[pepperjoe]

I hate to interrupt their promotional commercials, but this is the SECOND time now I have seen this company respond to criticisms about their firm by THP members, with a combination of self-serving advertising and nebulous attacks against others.

I have purchased pepper seeds from many companies. But many years ago (long before THP even existed), I was forewarned by fellow chileheads to steer clear of this seed company, due to the following two concerns -

* Re-naming pepper varieties
* Overpriced

These complaints started many years ago, but in looking over the more recent complaints by many respected THP members in this thread -

http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/15006-pepper-joes/

as well as a recent review of their web site, it appears that this leopard can't change his spots?

With regards to the first issue, one of the pepper experts I most respect once confessed to me that his biggest pet peeve in this field was the mass confusion caused by people re-naming peppers. Its bad enough when individuals do this, but even worse when a commercial seed vendor does it to increase sales.

I think he felt there was a special place in Hell reserved for seed companies that engaged in this despicable practice.

As Pepper Joe should well know, a serious hobbyist/collector is more likely to purchase a new or unusual variety he has not seen or grown before, over a common variety he already has/doesn't need.

For example - I am not going to pay high prices for common Fish Pepper, but "Bahamas Seafood Pepper"? - I might be tempted!

(BTW, its worth noting that they have now "double-named" this pepper on their site (but with the BS name still in larger & bolder type), in apparent response to public complaints by two THP members who actually live in the Bahamas, stating that there is no such pepper! -




A serious hobbyist/collector is also going to be more willing to pay a high price for a variety name he can find nowhere else, vs. one he can obtain elsewhere for less.

Then there's the second issue - pricing.

Let's compare Pepper Joe's with a few other reputable sources, shall we? -

Mustard Hab -

Pepper Gal - $2/25 seeds = 8 cents per seed
Seed Savers Exchange - $2.75/25 seeds = 11 cents
Pepper Joe's "Spicy Mustard Habanero" - $3.99/20 seeds = ~20 cents

Fish Pepper -

Pepper Gal - $2/25 seeds = 8 cents per seed
Seed Savers Exchange - $2.75/50 seeds = 5.5 cents
Pepper Joe's "Bahamas Seafood Pepper" - $3.99/20 seeds = ~20 cents

Then there's Bhut Jolokia. They take "real" Bhut Jolokia f/Dr. Bosland, rename it to "GIANT Bhut Jolokia", and sell it for almost $1 a seed!

They also imply that this re-named "Giant" variety is available ONLY from Pepper Joe's, loudly proclaiming right under the new name in ALL CAPS -


OK, how about here -

http://www.chilepepperinstitute.org/files/tiny_mce/file_manager/2011Catalog.pdf

Now, why in the &#$! would I want to pay so much more $$$ to buy re-named seeds, when I can get them from from the official source for much less?

Then there's this claim about their "Giant" Bhut Jolokia -


WRONG - Dr. Paul Bosland is based at New Mexico State University (NMSU), not UNM!

Dr. Bosland is considered one of the world's leading experts on peppers, and his affiliation with NMSU is well-known to anyone with a serious interest in this field. I am very surprised that Pepper Joe's got that wrong!

The fact that this company mis-identified the supposed source of their "Giant Bhut Jolokia" is also a bit disconcerting!

Speaking of questionable Bhut seed sources, there has also been some recent concerns expressed by various members here at THP about some of their seeds not growing true? For example -


But the way they chose to respond to THP member criticisms in these two threads is also quite telling - blatant self-promotion/links, combined with nebulous attacks against others!

In this thread, they respond to complaints about THEIR firm, by attacking their competitors! -


along with an ad hominem attack against one of their own customers, a THP member who had just complained about their company -


And in the other thread, where many THP members (including well_respected, senior ones) posted negative comments about this company, they responded with a nebulous attack against the THP members themselves! - actually accusing the THP members of being competitors that were secretly out to get him! -


Nor is this the only time they have done this! Following is part of their reply to a negative customer review I came across on another site from Googling them -


http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/99/

I'm sorry, but for a company to respond to complaints by attacking their own customers, is just not the kind of company that I am encouraged to do business with!

Their posts in both of these threads at THP also consisted mainly of self-serving promotional claims, and read more like an advertising brochure for Pepper Joes! Much of these promotional claims were duplicated in both threads, and also included a total of 7 self-promoting/spamvertized links!

Then there's the whole honesty issue of a company whose sales site is STILL claiming that Bhut is "THE HOTTEST PEPPER IN THE WORLD"! :

I can't help but wonder if that is because that is the hottest variety they happen to carry right now? A suspicion that was not exactly contradicted when I read the following plea on their member page -




Now, I will say something nice about Pepper Joe's -

I don't think they are as bad as Hirts or Reimers, and I might actually do business with them if they were to clean up their act.

I originally had lingering concerns about them, based in part on prior warnings I had heard regarding their company. But after reading some of the more recent complaints here at THP, and in particular the way they chose to respond to them, their reputation in my mind has taken a major move South.

Dude, you need to straighten-up and fly right, if you EVER want to get my business in the future!

Anyways, that's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it!

 

[pepperjoe]

Lazerguy, I am impressed with the time and effort that you took to make your post. However, I'm compelled to answer back on several issues. I promise two things.....to do it as a Gentleman and to 'Fess up' where we may have made a mistake.
I want to thank Chili Monsta, MisterBigglesWorth, PepperGrowingMan, Route Bound and Patrick for the show of confidence....although I'm quite capable of answering the issues myself. Also, I appreciate you showing so many of my Hot Pepper seeds growing nicely MisterBigglesWorth at http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/21652-bigglesworths-family-snapshots/ on your "Family Snapshots" Also, Thanks Omri for moving the Thread to the appropriate Forum and giving me an opportunity for providing an answer to the thread. I spent 39 years in Corporate America working for a Ladies clothing company called Fashion Bug. I ran 350 stores and had 3,500 employees under my supervision. I'm not pointing this out to brag...but rather to establish credability as to my business accumen. Also, a position like this gives you tough skin because you are being constantly challenged. So with that in mind, let me do some self analysis on Pepper Joe's. 1. "Doing promotional commercials" and being the "Used car salesman" of the Chile Pepper business....GUILTY as charged. I love Pepper Joe's and have a deep commitment to the business. My marketing style is to promote our products....which I deeply believe in....rather aggressively. But we do have a sense of humor....what else would explain me being all over YouTube as a 7' tall Hot Pepper guy marketing our products? 2. Re-naming Hot Peppers....GUILTY as charged. 'Back in the day' when it was just me and Pepper Gal in Ft. Lauderdale as the two Chile Seed companies out here....we gave heirloom peppers a nickname because they had no name. I named the "Bolivian Rainbow", "Fatalli" and the "Jamaican Habanero" and they are now the accepted name of those Chiles that appear all over the Internet. I vowed to never do it in this day and age and even added an "AKA" to the few that may have been misleading on my website. 3. It sez on my Website that the Bhut Jolokia/Ghost Pepper is the "Hottest in the World". SOMEWHAT GUILTY....I update my website the 4th Q of each year...and we will change that to the Butch T/Trinidad Scorpion. Jeez....it was just put in the Guiness book of World's records maybe 8 weeks ago. Give us a little time. We'll be selling the Butch T and proclaiming it the Worlds Hottest in 2012. 4. "Overpriced Seeds"......INNOCENT!! I have dozens of seeds priced between 12 Cents and 15 Cents each....and we give away at least 2 packs of Free Seeds with every purchase...so if you figure them in it's maybe 10 Cents per seed....a LOWER price than the companies you quoted. Also, our 'Collections' are priced very cheap, The "Sweet Treats" come in at 8 Cents per seed with the Freebies.....and the Cayenne Pepper 4-Pack come in at 10 Cents per seed with the Freebies.....and the "Tomato Garden 8-Pack comes in at 8 Cents per seed with the Freebies. But let me be perfectly frank and clear...I don't want to be the cheapest seed guy out here. I'll leave that to Wal-Mart and Lowes. I have a different business model...that includes sending out 40,000 Free Catalogs per year...and in our history sending out well over 1 Million FREE seeds (not packs, seeds) in our 23 year history. Then we spend a ton of $$ being on Facebook and advertising there, and with our Newsletter to execute it....to keep customers informed and give gardenign tips, pics, free seeds contests, etc. Sorry, we just can't be the cheapest....but we can be close. FYI...we don't aspire to be the biggest either....one of the Big Boys just offered the Ghost Pepper for the first time in 2011....they are only 10 years behind the rest of us. 4. "Customer Service issues"....INNOCENT!!! We've never 'bashed' a customer'. That would be stupid. but unfortunately there are a few rip off artist and scams out there. We actually get request for refunds or seed replacements for scams that have never ordered a thing from us. I will draw the line there and call them out for it. I learned in my 39 years in corporate America that in a bad economy....Shrinkage goes up. Unfortunately, our 'Shrinkage' is these con artists. Otherwise, our Satisfaction rate is over 95%....and I'll put that up against any company out there. 5. We've been watching too much of the 'Casey Anthony' Case...GUILTY...as you can see by my Guilty/Innocent format. Yes, Paul Bosland is at NMSU, not UNM...you're right!! We have hundreds of Chile facts on our website...adn Thousands of words/verbiage...so AHA.....you got Pepper Joe on a mistake of abbreviations. I'm on THP for one major reason....there are so many astute Chileheads and Gardeners here that I learn from you all. Not to just solicit business....although I un-apologically sure do.....but We're always just a "Student" of the Chile Pepper and Garden industry. I've met some awesome connections and friends here. Like Mike McDermott whom I've went to for some answers....and Judy from ChileLover who I actually bought seeds from wholesale during a shortage on a certain variety....or Jeff /Spicy Chicken who actually put my website on his Seed Page to refer his customers to because he stopped selling seeds.... I said the "Tepin" is the Hottest in the World on my "Heat Scale"...Dude, read it again. Our Customers constantly ask for direction on Heat Levels on chiles...and we gave to them. Bottom Line, Pepper Joe's is not for everyone. But I do promise that if you give us a chance to be a customer of ours, we will deliver product, service and sticking with you during the whole process...or your money back. Thanks for hearing us out. Great Gardening and Fiery Regards, Pepper Joe

 

[Omri]

Now that you completely ignored my last comment, I am closing this thread.
Besides the fact we are talking about people's livelihood, there's also a way of conducting a conversation without offending any of the other parties. this wasn't achieved here and I'm afraid it reached a very dark and unfriendly place.

The faith of this thread will be decided later. CLOSED.