Getting plants out of nutrient lockout?

[Cayennemist]

One VERY important thing here is what truly means Lock out. There are two different kinds of "lock out."
 

1. The PH is off balance, that's what salt does but inst always salt. This triggers a protective defense locking out stuff that would damage the plant.
2. A absence of symbiotic beneficial microbes is missing due to the current state of the soil. Said microbes are natures source of most of the needed nutrients  i.e. the way the plant adapted to live in the wild   IF the soil is "dead" it will be harder for the plant to absorb some of the nutrients.

This is why non synthetic guys always post, "Do I need Cal-Mag?"
 
I find it much easier to grow organic once you get past the learning curve. I feel like PMD hit it on the head with the comment :

 
Nutrient lockout? pH? PPM? All irrelevant if you have a healthy soil food web.

 
What he didn't say is how easy and affordable organic gardening can be with a little knowledge. If you spend money on MiracleGrow, you could be spending money on Worm castings. And if you you don't have room for compost outside, then check you local municipal dump. Many City dumps have FREE compost that is ready to use.
 
 
The reason us organic guys are so passionate, is because organic has a hippy stigma opposite to our our motive. We are seeing great results for very cheap and we want to spread the word. And honestly for the newbies out there, it is MUCH easier, cheaper, and forgiving to grow and learn organic.
 
The three biggest pepper plants I have ever seen have been grown organically on a budget with minimal effort.  
 
My first year I had a DWC setup, and I learned sooo much. I don't think it is evil to synthesize the 26 "required" nutrients for plant growth. In fact I think everyone should learn both. I just think that the science is still a little lop sided favoring synthetic because we don't yet fully understand organic soil fertility, and or it isn't yet common knowledge.
 
 
 
 
 
Honestly, like I said before,
We need a sub forums under Growing hot peppers:

• Organic
• Synthetic
• Glogs
• Growing Other

Wouldn't that stop most of the arguing between the two?

 

[John1234]

^  Pests and disease are part of a "healthy soil food web".  That's nature.  Insects, bacteria, fungus, are all part of a healthy environment except when you want your plants to have better odds in their favor than they would in the wild.

 
Agreed, though I was refering to growing in a sterile environment. These same organisms exist in a healthy environment, just not in abundance unless something is out of wack in the system.
 

 
re: tilling
wow, what do you do instead of tilling then?  just hammer some seeds into the dirt? hope for the best? 
is there some sort of plant you co produce that aerates the ground?

 
I was refering to a common response from most no-till farmers to any and every problem, not my own practice/idealogy. That said, I believe there are a number of plants/techniques no-till/permaculturists use to break soil.
 

 
they are imo without merit.
both organic and hydroponic methods of production can be entirely 'sustainable', and both can be miss managed and terribly destructive. See weed growers in state parks, and see nitrogen,copper and fecal runoff from organic farms.

 
I've read much of the same and have seen the damage that marijuana growers can produce. Rediverting streams and increasing soil erosion to say the least, besides dumping all sorts of wild chemicals into the environment with no regard for consequences.
 
The organic industry has many faults, and I don't personally buy into the certified program nonsense. It creates a huge list of what not to do, and leaves very few appoved methods, creating issues, ie. overuse of copper fungicides. Following their guidelines creates a system just as dependent on outside inputs as conventional farming, with similar toxic outputs/run-off. Many organic farms over-till their fields to prevent weeds in place of using herbicides, but are greatly contributing to soil erosion.
 
By sustainable, I mean a system that can continue indefinitely without causing or producing harmful effects that compromise the surrounding ecosystem. This excludes most forms of hydroponics, at least in my opinion. There are aquaponics fish/crop systems that look interesting and would probably help address the lack of taste found in hydroponic food and marijuana, and produce healthier waste products. Don't get me wrong, I think it is interesting, have grown in coir myself and would try other forms of hydroponics. But to me it represents reductionist thinking, that we understand everything that a plant needs, can put it in solution and grow a perfect plant.
 
I was refering to pesticides and their misuse (overuse, improper application) when I stated chemicals. Clarity is not always my style
 
BT-transgene growers are running headlong in to this, as something like 2/3 of pests targeted are quickly becoming resistant. Over/mis-use of almost any measure of control is going to limit its efficiency over the long term. The tactic you mention is an interesting way around this, but the root of the problem is the constant exposure to BT, applying a band-aid to hold down another one isn't the solution.
 
I think there is a place for chemical pesticides, but in my opinion, it is very limited as last-stage action to avert crop failure, not as a go to method every time a bug is spotted or in any rational prevention/IPM program. Creating a zero in any environment is going to make ripe breeding ground for the next pest.
 
 

Honestly, like I said before,
We need a sub forums under Growing hot peppers:

• Organic
• Synthetic
• Glogs
• Growing Other

Wouldn't that stop most of the arguing between the two?

 
See: ICMag
 
Suppose this has gotten off topic with soapbox rantings hehe

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

A healthy "soil food web" will not happen until the nutrients and pH needed for good growth are present.
 

Yes that comes with cycling the soil for at least 30 days and the longer the better. No pH adjusters are necessary after initial mixing and cooking (cycling) of a well amended soil.
That is my point.

 

[Cayennemist]

Agreed, though I was refering to growing in a sterile environment. These same organisms exist in a healthy environment, just not in abundance unless something is out of wack in the system.
 

 
I was refering to a common response from most no-till farmers to any and every problem, not my own practice/idealogy. That said, I believe there are a number of plants/techniques no-till/permaculturists use to break soil.
 

 
I've read much of the same and have seen the damage that marijuana growers can produce. Rediverting streams and increasing soil erosion to say the least, besides dumping all sorts of wild chemicals into the environment with no regard for consequences.
 
The organic industry has many faults, and I don't personally buy into the certified program nonsense. It creates a huge list of what not to do, and leaves very few appoved methods, creating issues, ie. overuse of copper fungicides. Following their guidelines creates a system just as dependent on outside inputs as conventional farming, with similar toxic outputs/run-off. Many organic farms over-till their fields to prevent weeds in place of using herbicides, but are greatly contributing to soil erosion.
 
By sustainable, I mean a system that can continue indefinitely without causing or producing harmful effects that compromise the surrounding ecosystem. This excludes most forms of hydroponics, at least in my opinion. There are aquaponics fish/crop systems that look interesting and would probably help address the lack of taste found in hydroponic food and marijuana, and produce healthier waste products. Don't get me wrong, I think it is interesting, have grown in coir myself and would try other forms of hydroponics. But to me it represents reductionist thinking, that we understand everything that a plant needs, can put it in solution and grow a perfect plant.
 
I was refering to pesticides and their misuse (overuse, improper application) when I stated chemicals. Clarity is not always my style
 
BT-transgene growers are running headlong in to this, as something like 2/3 of pests targeted are quickly becoming resistant. Over/mis-use of almost any measure of control is going to limit its efficiency over the long term. The tactic you mention is an interesting way around this, but the root of the problem is the constant exposure to BT, applying a band-aid to hold down another one isn't the solution.
 
I think there is a place for chemical pesticides, but in my opinion, it is very limited as last-stage action to avert crop failure, not as a go to method every time a bug is spotted or in any rational prevention/IPM program. Creating a zero in any environment is going to make ripe breeding ground for the next pest.
 
 

 
See: ICMag
 
Suppose this has gotten off topic with soapbox rantings hehe

nice strawman...

 

[queequeg152]

BT-transgene growers are running headlong in to this, as something like 2/3 of pests targeted are quickly becoming resistant. Over/mis-use of almost any measure of control is going to limit its efficiency over the long term. The tactic you mention is an interesting way around this, but the root of the problem is the constant exposure to BT, applying a band-aid to hold down another one isn't the solution.
 

 
I think what this all boils down to is, your prefer yours. and i prefer mine.
We must be carefull however, to not support out views with bogus information. This is my biggest gripe with organic growers tbh.
 
 
there is NO discernible difference in nutritional value and tast in organic produce verses non organic produce what so ever. this has been repeatedly studied, and the ONLY reported increases in nutritional value, are attributed to the fact that organic produce tends to be smaller, and have less water weight, and hence is 'denser' so to speak.
 
organic producers spray a god awful amount of BT themselves, so they are to blame themselves here. and i do take isue with your numbers regarding numbers of pests resistant or becoming resistant to BT.
 
you should be directing your ire towards factory farming in general, because both organic and non organic are to blame here. Tho i will admit, even the poorest run organic farm if far less damaging to the environment than a conventional large scale farm.

 

[John1234]

nice strawman...

 
I'm a walking talking scarecrow
 
now wheres my soapbox...
 

I think what this all boils down to is, your prefer yours. and i prefer mine.
We must be carefull however, to not support out views with bogus information. This is my biggest gripe with organic growers tbh.
 
 
there is NO discernible difference in nutritional value and tast in organic produce verses non organic produce what so ever. this has been repeatedly studied, and the ONLY reported increases in nutritional value, are attributed to the fact that organic produce tends to be smaller, and have less water weight, and hence is 'denser' so to speak.

 
True enough, everyone has their preference and reasoning for such. I do enjoy the bit of back and forth though, if there's anything better than being right ( ), it's being wrong and learning something.
 
Interesting link. Coming from an organic perspective, though they appear to approach it without much bias.
 
I do agree there are few objective studies supporting a difference in nutritional yield between conventional and organic farming. Actually researching what I spout sometimes can be useful.
 
My original point and one I still maintain, is that hydroponics, in most cases, will produce less flavour. At the very least I will stand by the opinion of hoards of other pot heads and our collective anecdotal experience Although apparently this can be mitigated by maintaining a microbe population in the medium.
 
 

organic producers spray a god awful amount of BT themselves, so they are to blame themselves here. and i do take isue with your numbers regarding numbers of pests resistant or becoming resistant to BT.

 
I spray/drench BT myself, but this is a reaction to a pest, and the treatment ends at one point, something that doesn't happen with BT-transgenic crops, where the bacteria is ever present in abundance. Admittedly, the effect of consistently drenching your field with BT in the manner organic crop farmers use other methods of control is probably barely surpassed by the constant presence in BT-transgenic crops.
 
Those numbers are bloated, upon further reading. Although BT resistance can be noted in a variety of targeted pests, this does not equate to an immediate loss of control. It is becoming a problem though, as evidenced by the refugee crop technique, increased pesticide augmentation, the rapid development of multi-strain BT crops and field invasion by secondary pests.
 
Well there goes two hours sifting through "objective" studies/papers produced by the GM and anti-GM lobbies....

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

 
there is NO discernible difference in nutritional value and tast in organic produce verses non organic produce what so ever.

Hundreds of cannabis growers and users would say bullshit to that statement.

 

[queequeg152]

Hundreds of cannabis growers and users would say bullshit to that statement.

supposed bullshit withstanding. anecdote does not equate with truth.
 
group think is the culprit here im betting.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

As usual your opinion and nothing more.

 

[hogleg]

This is starting to really piss me off this is at least the third time i've seen it happen. We are a community, here to help are neighbors or get help when we need with a grow. there is someone here that needs help with what they already have going. and to come in and say switch to organics mid season is just Trolling as far as i'm concerned. the person who started this thread is prolly long gone and did not finish getting the help the need.
 
What PMD is preaching is TRUE but timing is everything, and his timing sucks. Organics should be preached in the Off season if you want converts!
 
BOSSMAN , MODS, ANYBODY THIS SIGHT NEEDS A ORGANICS SECTION MORE THAN EVER GOTT DAMMIT!!!

 

[Cayennemist]

 
I'm a walking talking scarecrow
 
now wheres my soapbox...
 
 
True enough, everyone has their preference and reasoning for such. I do enjoy the bit of back and forth though, if there's anything better than being right ( ), it's being wrong and learning something.
 
Interesting link. Coming from an organic perspective, though they appear to approach it without much bias.
 
I do agree there are few objective studies supporting a difference in nutritional yield between conventional and organic farming. Actually researching what I spout sometimes can be useful.
 
My original point and one I still maintain, is that hydroponics, in most cases, will produce less flavour. At the very least I will stand by the opinion of hoards of other pot heads and our collective anecdotal experience Although apparently this can be mitigated by maintaining a microbe population in the medium.
 
 
 
I spray/drench BT myself, but this is a reaction to a pest, and the treatment ends at one point, something that doesn't happen with BT-transgenic crops, where the bacteria is ever present in abundance. Admittedly, the effect of consistently drenching your field with BT in the manner organic crop farmers use other methods of control is probably barely surpassed by the constant presence in BT-transgenic crops.
 
Those numbers are bloated, upon further reading. Although BT resistance can be noted in a variety of targeted pests, this does not equate to an immediate loss of control. It is becoming a problem though, as evidenced by the refugee crop technique, increased pesticide augmentation, the rapid development of multi-strain BT crops and field invasion by secondary pests.
 
Well there goes two hours sifting through "objective" studies/papers produced by the GM and anti-GM lobbies....

Oh now I get it! = Troll face  
 
Good one
No worries my soapbox is made of mahogany and walnut   And PMD's is teak.
And you haven't even got in to "round up ready" yet.

This is starting to really piss me off this is at least the third time i've seen it happen. We are a community, here to help are neighbors or get help when we need with a grow. there is someone here that needs help with what they already have going. and to come in and say switch to organics mid season is just Trolling as far as i'm concerned. the person who started this thread is prolly long gone and did not finish getting the help the need.
 
What PMD is preaching is TRUE but timing is everything, and his timing sucks. Organics should be preached in the Off season if you want converts!
 
BOSSMAN , MODS, ANYBODY THIS SIGHT NEEDS A ORGANICS SECTION MORE THAN EVER GOTT DAMMIT!!!

 
 
First,
I hate you already, lol I kid, no but really...
 
However yes we do need an OG and synthetic subforum!
 
And dude the "time" is always right for AACT <== That means troll face now
 
Seriously chillax, maybe have a beer (organic ), and grow some peppers brotha.

 

[hogleg]

OKay i listened to some Reggae and got my blood pressure in check.
Dont get me wrong i think the disscussion here has HUGE value (my peps n maters r org. fer cryin out loud) I just worry that its at the cost of someone who asked for or needs help. and only due to timing and location.
A far as i'm concerned your preaching to the coir. lol
 
( i musta woke up on the wrong side of the couch er sumtin)
 
 
 
 
I wish i knew how to do smiley and the new troll faces, but as you can see from my spelling and
punckuwation am retawded.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

What PMD is preaching is TRUE but timing is everything, and his timing sucks. Organics should be preached in the Off season if you want converts!
 
 

I am not looking for "converts" only stating my opinion. Why does organic growing have to be discussed in the "off season?" Do you think soil needs an entire year to be usable? Wrong!
By the way my first post on this thread ended with the words, "Something to think about."
That is a statement referring to the future in case you missed it.

re: tilling
wow, what do you do instead of tilling then?
 

Ever heard of digging or double digging? I believe in no till as well but only after you have a good soil going.
Tilling once and amending with compost is all you need. After that dig and add compost as tilling is counterproductive to the soil.

 

[John1234]

Damn hogleg, just had to come and point out the obvious No where's me tail.. ah right here, between the ol' legs...
 
I think what he meant was to help with the current problem, instead of solely pushing organic as the solution or trying to tea away every problem (). And then some asshats (no relation oh snap, there it is again) railroaded the thread with their own ramblings.
 
And if I can't have my Round Up, how am I supposed to keep the walkway to my garden free of living organisms? AHA! I knew I would find a use for those old car batteries.

 

[hogleg]

Look this site needs Organic preachers it only makes it a better place. and if i were to send someone here for organic advice. it would be to PMD, Cayenne, or MIG. y'all generate excellent  discussions on the topic. but like i said a dont like seeing someone get the brush off thats all. And I wish deep down in my heart that  this page of talk is the one that finely gets THE GREAT PEOPLE OF THP . To start a Organic forum. Then we will have a location for reference. Only making this a better place.
 
and with that i'm gonna write a letter to a certain mod i wont mention. requesting he read this thread. and to please reconsider
a organic thread yet again. Some day they will have to cave. just like Shawshank redemption LOL

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

In all fairness hogleg the OP did not give us much to work with as there were no pictures, and very little information on what he was giving the plants.
About an organic forum..... I have asked as well and was told there was not enough interest and then the thread was locked if memory serves me.
Sounded to me like the mod didn't want to hear it. Funny though that they have a "Hot button topic" forum which is only frequented by a few people and yet there are at least 15-20 people on here who classified themselves as "organic growers" or somewhat organic in another thread.

 

[Weed]

Add one more to the organic forum interest.
 
I mean +1.

 

[wayright]

 

[ColdSmoke]

anyone ever tried rough-talking their plants out of nutrient lock out? Purely organic

 

[Blister]

Some day they will have to cave. just like Shawshank redemption LOL

And who is selected to climb through the mile long pipe of poo?