• If you have a question about commercial production or the hot sauce business, please post in The Food Biz.

fermenting Honey and fermentation

jsschrstrcks

jsschrstrcks

I started to post this in the ferment 101 thread, and then thought that perhaps this question deserves its own thread... After having done a bit of searching, I haven't found a satisfying answer...

Honey is a complex sugar as I recall, in fact, it takes your body something like 12 hours to break it down. In light of that, how does honey affect a ferment? Does it impact the time? I see agave nectar being recommended a lot, is that a better choice than honey? how does honey impact the taste? I know honey CAN be used in a ferment, because it was used to make mead, but that is not lacto, that is yeast yes?


I will likely give it a shot, and formulate my own opinions... But I want to hear the crowd sourced wisdom on the topic first :)
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
It's not just breaking it down that's the issue. It's also that it is anti-bacterial. Honey can slow down ferments A LOT if there is enough of it. From my experience with yeast ferments (Booze) A normal beer only needs to ferment for weeks, while fermented honey products take closer to year. This hover may not apply to lactobacillus ferments. The best I can suggest is experiment first.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Here's the thing about ANYTHING that goes into a fermentation jar. All of the sugars are going to be consumed, so, if you want to add a touch of sweetness to your sauce you have to do it AFTER the fermentation, during the processing of the mash into the sauce. Just as the yeast in a mash eats the sugars and

+1 DQ, honey can mess with and mess up your fermentation.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Garlic is less of an issue.

Also fermenting beverages at too high temperatures can produce very bad tasting products. It's not about what you can do but how adding changes it at proper temps, and using the known yeast/lacto strains. Technically I can make wine with distillers yeast, and keep it around 80/85F in about 2 days. However this will taste terrible.

If you compare how it slows a standard yeast. IF it does the same to lacto ferments, then it will take many times longer.

That being said; I find honey to be an interesting idea for pepper ferments. It's anti-bacterial nature may help replace the need for salt in a ferment. If you are willing to have a slow ferment, and also well aged ferment. It may turn out very good. Plus consider what Rocketman said, most of the sweetness will ferment out.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
That would be an interesting thing to experiment on, using honey in lue of Salt in a ferment however, when using a starter the need for salt is reduced also. I have High Blood Pressure and so most of what I do is low sodium. When I start a fermentation I only add a couple of Tablespoons of salt to the mash with the starter. The starter kick starts the fermentation process.

Temperature is still important and Lacto bacteria work best in a temp range of 85 to 95 degrees F. lower temps will slow the fermentation down. Higher temps though will kill the bacteria off but not produce any off flavors as a yeast will at higher temps with estors and fissel alcohols.

My Jamican hot sauce is a fermented sauce and there are A LOT of sugars in the mash, Gloden Raisins, Ginger, Sweet Potatoes, a lot of sugars. Then I add pineapple to it during the final processing. Now you'd think that it's going to be a sweet sauce however it's not. You can taste all of the fruit in it but the only touch of sweet you'll taste, and it's only bairly noticeable, is from the pineapple that's added during processing. It's actually pretty cool that you can taste, and if you have a really great pallet, you can pick out all of the individual flavors, but not the sweetness of the fruits.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Honey is not just antibacterial, it's also bacteriostatic, meaning any bacteria that don't die from the honey won't multiply, and are effectively put into a kind of stasis. That's why a good portion of the pots of honey that were found in the tombs of Egyptian pharoahs are still perfectly edible to this day.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
In my years of craft beer brewing, I've found that honey ferments at the same rate as The sugars produced from the malted barely. Other than the FG being lower than that of the malt, I don't see a difference. If anything I think the honey ferments faster. Anything you are fermenting will mellow and refine itself with lower temps and age. I think beer is just more forgiving than mead.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Hmm that's interesting. My mead ferments were very slow. I also used sweet corn in it. However, when I tried a plain sweet corn ferment it went much quicker. Could the difference be the end ABV?(10-12% vs 5 to 8% for beer) The amount of honey used? Any other ideas?

Seems lacto bacteria are significantly slowed by honey. http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/view/58890/47207 However the lactic acid produced seems to increase. These experiments were done with milk and honey. Not peppers and honey so that may also affect the end result.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
This is all great stuff, keep it coming! :)

So honey then, might (assuming its not the milk causing the effect) produce a lower PH than other sugars, it just takes longer.

Honey in the initial stages can replace some amount of salt (would like to nail down a ratio here).

Honey might stall or stop the fermentation process, so use in moderation.

A fair summation?
DaQatz said:
Garlic is less of an issue.

Also fermenting beverages at too high temperatures can produce very bad tasting products. It's not about what you can do but how adding changes it at proper temps, and using the known yeast/lacto strains. Technically I can make wine with distillers yeast, and keep it around 80/85F in about 2 days. However this will taste terrible.
Click to expand...

I think the source came from a book of British literature... It gets cold there hah. Keeping it by the fire was probably intended to keep it from freezing.

3/5King said:
Other than the FG being lower than that of the malt, I don't see a difference.
Click to expand...

What does FG stand for?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
elcap1999 said:
Honey is not just antibacterial, it's also bacteriostatic, meaning any bacteria that don't die from the honey won't multiply, and are effectively put into a kind of stasis. That's why a good portion of the pots of honey that were found in the tombs of Egyptian pharoahs are still perfectly edible to this day.
Click to expand...

Honey is the only food with an indefinite shelf life
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
3/5King said:
In my years of craft beer brewing, I've found that honey ferments at the same rate as The sugars produced from the malted barely. Other than the FG being lower than that of the malt, I don't see a difference. If anything I think the honey ferments faster. Anything you are fermenting will mellow and refine itself with lower temps and age. I think beer is just more forgiving than mead.
Click to expand...

DaQatz said:
Hmm that's interesting. My mead ferments were very slow. I also used sweet corn in it. However, when I tried a plain sweet corn ferment it went much quicker. Could the difference be the end ABV?(10-12% vs 5 to 8% for beer) The amount of honey used? Any other ideas?

Seems lacto bacteria are significantly slowed by honey. http://www.ajol.info...iew/58890/47207 However the lactic acid produced seems to increase. These experiments were done with milk and honey. Not peppers and honey so that may also affect the end result.
Click to expand...

Remember though that in brewing we're using yeast and in fermenting peppers we're using Lactobacillius which is a bacteria so..............

elcap1999 said:
Honey is not just antibacterial, it's also bacteriostatic, meaning any bacteria that don't die from the honey won't multiply, and are effectively put into a kind of stasis. That's why a good portion of the pots of honey that were found in the tombs of Egyptian pharoahs are still perfectly edible to this day.
Click to expand...

^
^ ^
^ | | ^
| | What he said, honey in the fermentation jar = Bad Juju

:cool:
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Corn sugar/Cane Sugar/Beet Sugar are the easiest forms of fermentables for yeast to consume. When those sugars are present in a batch of beer you are fermenting, the yeast will consume those first. We gave a mead maker Morugas, Douglahs, and Bhuts. he is going to make 3 separate 1 gallon batches of mead highlighting the individual peppers.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
True, but most of the lactic acid critters are not yeasts. Some of the better cultures to use for "pickeling" are Lactobacillus Plantarum, and Lactobacillus Acidophilus. From what I read honey can seriously inhibit lacto bateria.

The counter point to this is that the same qualities that hinder the fermentation. Could also be a great benefit. In the article I linked above. They were doing experiments making yogurt.They had a control batch, a 5% honey batch, and a 10%. While the honied batches fermented significantly slower. In the end they had a lower PH, and a better shelf life.

The experiment I would like to try is a pepper mash ferment with no salt. Instead attempting to use the antibacterial nature of the honey as the preservative. There are naturally a number of concerns. Such as the amount of extra time the ferment will require. whether or not the honey will end up giving "equal time" to "bad" bacteria. After all, a slowed rot is still rot. The extended time needed for the ferment may also create a larger "window" for other infections to take hold. Etc...

So while honey looks interesting, and even promising. We have yet to determine if it's possible.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
DaQuatz - Yeah, I get it, would be interesting to do and I'd even be willing to get a bunch of pepers from the store to try it out. I usually run mine in 1 gallon jars and use about 1/2 cup of collected whey to start them with only 2 Tablespoons of salt. I'm wondering now about using 2 tablespoons of honey and kicking it up to 1 cup of whey to start. Then keep it in the higher half (90 - 95) of the best temp range for Lacto bacteria to help kick start them for maybe 2 weeks and then lowering it to the lower range (80 - 85) for the long haul. Letting it run for say 60 days. Using a mash of Jalapeno, Habanero, Onion and Carrots. I'd not add the garlic as it to has an effect on the bacteria and the purpose is to see what happens with honey so it would also give us a truer idea.

Thoughts...

BTW, love your candied pepper recipe! If y'all haven't tried it you need to!

http://thehotpepper....os/#entry393716
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well, the paper suggested 5 or 10% by volume IIRC of honey... So if you are using a gallon .1 or .05 of a gallon would be the appropriate amount. I would assume that is a larger number than simply a tablespoon...

I am VERY interested to see how it turns out!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Hi!

I've been lurking around here for a while now, trying to learn about the process of making hot sauces and fermenting and all that stuff and this part about honey really interested me.

Being that it is bacteriostatic I suppose the reason for the ferment taking a lot longer is that the lactobacteria in the starter won't multiply as they do in a regular ferment.

If the mash is viscous enough, shouldn't it be possible to make two batches and use them in the same jar? First one in the bottom with all the honey, and then one on top, which will be where the lactobacillus will multiply. Maybe use some fructose or other sugar to kick start it to reduce the growth of other bacteria? And then mix the mash when it's bubbling away so the bacteria can start working on the honey.

Also, won't the honey lose its antibacterial and bacteriostatic properties when the sugar is eaten by the lactobacteria?

Oh well, I'll be starting on my first sauces and ferments pretty soon :) And sorry for any odd use of English, it's not my first language.

/Philip
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top