hydroponic Hydroponics for dummie Pfeffer

[Pfeffer]

I live in the south east of the Netherlands (Brabant). Here are some producers of hydroponics media (like Rockwool, Cultène etc) and a LOT of users. There are mass greenhouses all over the region. The west of NL is mainly paprika and tomatoes, here it's more tomatoes/roses/cucumber and illegal cannabis (but well, they account for all the non-business buyers, dragging the consumer prices for this stuff down - there's a huge market for it). All the "warm" fruits like zuchinni, cucumber, tomatoes, peppers/chilli's, strawberries are grown in greenhouses. Strawberries are also planted outside, but we need greenhouse to extend the season as it gets wet and cold here. Even asparagus is grown in greenhouses so that they can produce early.
 
See.. Stoners are not that bad after all.
 
However, lighting and reservoirs are the most expensive parts. Things like rockwool cost next to nothing here, those cubes sell around $0.20 a piece. The rest is available at our equilavent of Home Depot and doesn't cost much either. To bad slabs are so volumnious, else it would be an idea to mail you some. With those prices it would be interesting soon enough, postage wise.
 
But if slabs are the way to go, that's what I'll buy. I figure it's the least risk on pathogens as it's basically a sterile medium to start with.

 

[queequeg152]

the netherlands is in the north of europe right?

in my minds, anything north of italy is northern Europe lol. idk how you see yourselves tho.

i am honestly jealous you can get rockwool at that price. its really too bad america is so warm... almost nobody i know of has ever heard of rockwool, let alone bought any. the market is pretty much 100% cannabis related ATM, save for the super niche greenhouses that operate in the north.

the cost to ship them tho, it probably outrageous lol. i cant imagine, save for a container ship full, shipping them to the states would make any sense at all, financially speaking.

with all the high tech agriculture... what do your food prices look like up there?

in the US we get field grown toms most of the year for like... 1 dollar usd a lb. they are not pretty, nor very tasty, but cheap.

in the off season...super fancy greenhouse toms are maby 3 bucks a lb max, for the vine ripened flawless tomatos you get in plastic containers.

 

[Vertically Challenged]

I use fytocell which comes from Holland and is used on massive scale for hydroponic greenhouse growing commercially in the UK and across the EU it is also sterile though not as cheap as rockwool in Holland it's probably cheaper than the UK given it's manufactured there.
 
It's an expanded resin the expansion process will certainly be enough to sterilise it (High temperature). I grow in plant pots which do not lend themselves to rockwool (I also make them) so I am biased to fytocell.
 
I also love that you cannot overwater it so you can leave drippers on 24/7 if you want and it'll happily go 2-3 days between waters so you can handwater as well. It also gives a nice window to fix things if the drippers block.

 

[Pfeffer]

Food prices are down due to the import restrictions by Russia (but not by so much). We have quite decent prices for tomatoes and zuchinni and such, but they taste like crap compared to soil grown veggies. Why is that? Not because they are from hydro, but tomatoes for example are picked before they are riped.. as green tomatoes are much stronger and less subceptable to damage as ripe tomatoes. They then "ripen" the tomatoes with ethylene gas.
 
Fytocell is available as well and goes for around €50 per 150 liter (that's about $65 for a 40 gallon bag). A 25 liter bag is about €10. I know that stuff, but isn't it pretty much the same as perlite but just with a different raw material?  But if I would use a drain to waste system in pots with a fytomix, wouldn't the medium stay too wet? I don't really believe in the can not over water part, unless you might air your reservoir a lot with a bubbler?
 
Would you guys mind to post some pics of your setups? (or do you have growlogs that dig a bit deeper in the hydro aspect?)

 

[hot stuff]

Pot growers is what causes the prices here to be so much. They make so much off their crop they're willing to pay the price. Shop around for suppliers who sell to people growing vegetables mainly. Much cheaper there.

 

[Vertically Challenged]

Food prices are down due to the import restrictions by Russia (but not by so much). We have quite decent prices for tomatoes and zuchinni and such, but they taste like crap compared to soil grown veggies. Why is that? Not because they are from hydro, but tomatoes for example are picked before they are riped.. as green tomatoes are much stronger and less subceptable to damage as ripe tomatoes. They then "ripen" the tomatoes with ethylene gas.
 
Fytocell is available as well and goes for around €50 per 150 liter (that's about $65 for a 40 gallon bag). A 25 liter bag is about €10. I know that stuff, but isn't it pretty much the same as perlite but just with a different raw material?  But if I would use a drain to waste system in pots with a fytomix, wouldn't the medium stay too wet? I don't really believe in the can not over water part, unless you might air your reservoir a lot with a bubbler?
 
Would you guys mind to post some pics of your setups? (or do you have growlogs that dig a bit deeper in the hydro aspect?)

No it's nothing like perlite, it's more like sponge you grow in. It's always 40% air at maximum saturation no matter how much more you add (As long as it's not immersed).
 
damn that's expensive it's cheaper in the UK.
 
These are my plants they were handwatered every 2 days but easily you could dripper 24/7 (I wouldn't I'd dripper 2-3 times a day if recirculating or once a day with 10% run off if I was DTW.)
 

 
Fytocell will wick water up to 12" but it will not saturate above the water level (Ideal for hempy's as well) I have used it for 4-5 years with great success including 24/7 watering, handwatering as a compost improver and propagation.
 
 
I highly recommend getting at least 1 bag and putting it a standard plant pot although 10 euros is criminally expensive.
 
 
 

 

[Pfeffer]

Pot growers is what causes the prices here to be so much. They make so much off their crop they're willing to pay the price. Shop around for suppliers who sell to people growing vegetables mainly. Much cheaper there.

Lot this is exactly what's causing it to be cheap here. More buyers, is a better purchase price for the store = cheaper products.

 

[queequeg152]

Would you guys mind to post some pics of your setups? (or do you have growlogs that dig a bit deeper in the hydro aspect?)

old thread, but basically what we were talking about.

http://thehotpepper.com/topic/34550-diy-fertigation-controller/





its really just a pump, empting a premixed res. nothing fancy at all.

i had plans to automate the process, but the cost would have been like half a grand.
you can dig through my photobucket if you want.

idk how to organize any of it, so just click around i guess.

http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/Queequeg152/library/

 

[Pfeffer]

Half a grand? Use arduino and do it for a lot less - and it's fun too!
 
I'm also looking into a simple system like your slabs. I figure it's just a DTW system as I don't see return tubes? And how would you compare your results in comparisement with soil grows? (i.e. was it worth the effort/added expense?)

 

[queequeg152]

Half a grand? Use arduino and do it for a lot less - and it's fun too!
 
I'm also looking into a simple system like your slabs. I figure it's just a DTW system as I don't see return tubes? And how would you compare your results in comparisement with soil grows? (i.e. was it worth the effort/added expense?)

its just dtw. the bags are cut on one side, and sloped such that the water drains out of that cut. its not terribly superior to that of say, peat light grown in the same manner, but it is noticeably faster growing in the rockwool.

the whole thing is convenience tho. i basically just plop down a slab, cut holes for the blocks, pour a beer pitcher of fertilizer solution into it, and you are rocking and rolling after like 90 seconds. you hand water for like a week, then you plug in the emitters and walk away.

mixing peat lite takes hours... coco lite takes less time, but still, its annoying.
there are growing methods that use these heavy plastic troughs and coir... i would consider that, if such a thing was available outside of india. that system seems to be the best of both worlds, but if money were no option it would be rockwool all day.

yes there are coir slabs... but they cost the same as rockwool slabs? so ive never bothered with them. they are also 100% coir which is inferior to coco lite. imho anyway.


the money was to do with fabricating various things, the tools required for said fabrication, and various sensors i still needed to buy.

i needed to build a flow cell for the ph sensor, and buy some injection check valves for the fertilizer injection sites. i also needed to rebuild the whole piping assembly, as the flat setup you see in that one image was just a prelim. setup to test out the whole idea.
also needed some PLC equipment, and hardware enclosures, pilot lights, switches etc, flow switch... it all adds up.

more over it would have required alot of hard work and effort to get it to work well. i was not up for that, being that the stupid simple system i had in place worked wonderfully.

 

[Pfeffer]

I think I'll also go for the rockwool slabs in combo with a DTW system. It might not be the ideal situation, but I think it's the least messiest, cheapest and easiest to use system. For Ph testing I will use old fashioned litmus testers abd use citric acid as Ph-. Does anyone have an idea if you can use sodiumhydroxide (NaOH) as Ph+? It seems the chemically safest, cheapest and easiest to aquire base. Also, does phosporic (flowers need phosperus) acid help with flowering/pollination? I once used willy pete on a forrest, but that didn't work out well (the goal was to create a smoke screen, worked very well).
 
I figure you can buy off the shelf calmag for hydroponics?

 

[John1234]

No idea on the NaOH, I prefer KSO4, it adds relevant nutrients. Citric acid is debateable. Not really the case here, but if you're running organic microbes will consume. The odd time I've used it pH was never stable, apparently it will chelate nutrients in the solution.

 

[queequeg152]

I think I'll also go for the rockwool slabs in combo with a DTW system. It might not be the ideal situation, but I think it's the least messiest, cheapest and easiest to use system. For Ph testing I will use old fashioned litmus testers abd use citric acid as Ph-. Does anyone have an idea if you can use sodiumhydroxide (NaOH) as Ph+? It seems the chemically safest, cheapest and easiest to aquire base. Also, does phosporic (flowers need phosperus) acid help with flowering/pollination? I once used willy pete on a forrest, but that didn't work out well (the goal was to create a smoke screen, worked very well).
 
I figure you can buy off the shelf calmag for hydroponics?

let me know if you have any questions... regarding pumps, timers etc.

citric acid is an organic acid. i would not reccomend it personally. I use HCl, it costs 5 dollars a gallon here. a gallon will last me like 5 years.
anyone that tells you that HCl or sulfuric acid will damage plants should be dressed down and critisized harshly. its simply not true in any way. unless you dump it on the plants i suppose.

Hydro PH down is a ripoff. if you have any chemical supply houses, and you insist on phosphoric or nitric acid, as many hydro growers do, you may be able to buy more concentrated forms at said chemical supply houses for a fraction of the price.

you can use NaOH, tho i dispute the assertion that it is safe. any bicarbonate would be a better alternative imho, as its FAAAAAAAAAAAAR less caustic. tho you are correct in stating that NaOH is probably the cheapest means of raising PH.

however, unlike acid, bases will be rarely needed unless you have very unusual water quality issues. that being the case, i would err on the side of safety, as handling NaOH prills or powder, can be fairly dangerous.
unlike a strong acid, one cannot simply draw it out of a container with a disposable pipett...

phosphoric for flowering? IDK, probably bullshit. if you want to raise the phosphate levels, simply add some mono potassium phosphate, DKP or what ever high phophate fertilizer you have.


IDK what the infatuation with cal mag IS honestly. if you want to raise the calcium, i personally use calcium nitrate. if you want to elevate the magnesium, magnesium sulfate.
but yea cal mag is super popualar with hydro folks here at least. im sure you can find it in spades.

ive never had any deficiency issues with the nutrient profile ive used for the last 2+ years.

 

[John1234]

why? because its easier? isnt perlite organic anyway?

lower bulk density is always better, as you get more air to the roots etc. this is why rockwool is amazing.

i understand that peat lite is actually better than coco lite, but prices of peat lately have been too high to justify.

wtf is sm90? if its a real disinfectant, its a scam, 30 bucks a liter?
why do folks have to make everything as expensive as possible, and as complicated as possible... 'chlorine' is cheap for a reason, its easy/trivial to produce, it also happens to be highly effective.

 
It is easier, and I could care less if perlite is organic. I've only used pure coir myself, once with hydroton marbles at the base, something I'll never do again. I say this a result of skimming dozens of coir grows, and seeing what is the most successful. Coir holds more nutrients and air than perlite (from memory, I'll fact check later), and is much easier to recycle used alone.
 
When you say coco lite, you're refering to this (bottom of page)?
 
SM90 is used 1-3ml a gallon, and costs around a 2-6 cents a gallon mixed. Much cheaper than root rot. The ripoff is using it 1:5 as a foliar.
 
Coriander oil, sulphonated canola oil and triethylamine (alcohol) it supposedly only effects anaerobic microbes. Quite cheap to DIY. Your google broken or something?

 

[queequeg152]

It is easier, and I could care less if perlite is organic. I've only used pure coir myself, once with hydroton marbles at the base, something I'll never do again. I say this a result of skimming dozens of coir grows, and seeing what is the most successful. Coir holds more nutrients and air than perlite (from memory, I'll fact check later), and is much easier to recycle used alone.
 
When you say coco lite, you're refering to this (bottom of page)?
 
SM90 is used 1-3ml a gallon, and costs around a 2-6 cents a gallon mixed. Much cheaper than root rot. The ripoff is using it 1:5 as a foliar.
 
Coriander oil, sulphonated canola oil and triethylamine (alcohol) it supposedly only effects anaerobic microbes. Quite cheap to DIY. Your google broken or something?

hahaha yea those fucking stupid clay marbles. fuck those things. they are still all over my back yard.

coco lite is just a derivation of the old school cornell peat lite. its just a mixture of 50% coir and 50% perlite.
i was not referring to any product in particular, just the mixture.

so sm 90 is some kind of organic soup. its suposed to be for organic grows or what? do you know how it works?

a gallon of 12% bleach costs like 7 bucks. this gallon of bleach could treat thousands of gallons of water.

why make it more complicated than need be? his grow will be with typical mineral fertilizers not fish soup or kelp or w.e.

 

[John1234]

hahaha yea those f**king stupid clay marbles. f**k those things. they are still all over my back yard.

coco lite is just a derivation of the old school cornell peat lite. its just a mixture of 50% coir and 50% perlite.
i was not referring to any product in particular, just the mixture.

so sm 90 is some kind of organic soup. its suposed to be for organic grows or what? do you know how it works?

a gallon of 12% bleach costs like 7 bucks. this gallon of bleach could treat thousands of gallons of water.

why make it more complicated than need be? his grow will be with typical mineral fertilizers not fish soup or kelp or w.e.

 
First of all, drop your antiorganic diatribe at the door, I could care less. It has nothing to do with this discussion. If you want to poke fun at something, go rile up PMD.
 
Don't get me started on marbles...
 
It's marketed as a fungicide that will not sanitize all microbes, much unlike bleach. I have the pdf around somewhere from the researcher that developed it, or you can fix your googler. Nutrilife claims he is dead... as far as I can tell without actually calling him, he's quite alive. They seem like a scam. I doubt it's applicable here.
 
What's complicated about it? Many conventional growers employ Trichoderma, mycorrhizal fungi, etc, so why would they want to use bleach? Some of the best grows I have seen are from hybrid systems.

 

[queequeg152]

First of all, drop your antiorganic diatribe at the door, I could care less. It has nothing to do with this discussion. If you want to poke fun at something, go rile up PMD.
 
Don't get me started on marbles...
 
It's marketed as a fungicide that will not sanitize all microbes, much unlike bleach. I have the pdf around somewhere from the researcher that developed it, or you can fix your googler. Nutrilife claims he is dead... as far as I can tell without actually calling him, he's quite alive. They seem like a scam.
 
What's complicated about it? Many conventional growers employ Trichoderma, mycorrhizal fungi, etc, so why would they want to use bleach?

lol diatribe?

im point is, if he is not running an organic grow, why should he run some organic product when chlorine will work better?

chlorine can be tested with common reagent test kits, hence you can monitor EXACTLY the residual free chlorine levels in the water.

Im going to guess you cannot do that with sm 90.

 

[Vertically Challenged]

I use something called SM6 I suspect it's a totally different product it's a seaweed extract organically certified. I use it in my hydroponics to confuse things ha ha ha.
 
I have never have and will never bleach my medium even at low concentrations lol although it would bring a nice white back to the fytocell. I've only seen root rot twice in many years and once was in dwc when temps got to hot and the other was using organic nutes that had gone funny.
 
Aerate the reservoir and control the temp and everything will be dandy regardless of using rockwool, fytocell, coco, perlite/verm or whatever. When you let the reservoir get above 21c problems can and often do happen quickly.

 

[Pfeffer]

I use the seaweeds stuff aswell (different brands like nitrozyme, rhizomax, rhizotonic), it does indeed increase growth and plants seem to root better. I only use it in its vegatative phase and after stressing (repotting, trimming the roots for overwintering and such). It's quite expensive, but you can usually buy 100ml bottles that last you a life time. It's just a few bucks and you use about 1-2ml per liter of water. So 1:500 - 1:1000 dilluted. It certainly increases your odds after transplanting.
 
To be honest I would like to prevent using bleach or HCl, I figure it works.. but chlorine is not the best thing for your health. They use it to purify drinking water as well, but it's just not my thing. If I don't need to in a DTW system I'd be happy to leave it as is. I think a bubbler would be sufficient for my DTW reservoir right? 

 

[queequeg152]

I use the seaweeds stuff aswell (different brands like nitrozyme, rhizomax, rhizotonic), it does indeed increase growth and plants seem to root better. I only use it in its vegatative phase and after stressing (repotting, trimming the roots for overwintering and such). It's quite expensive, but you can usually buy 100ml bottles that last you a life time. It's just a few bucks and you use about 1-2ml per liter of water. So 1:500 - 1:1000 dilluted. It certainly increases your odds after transplanting.
 
To be honest I would like to prevent using bleach or HCl, I figure it works.. but chlorine is not the best thing for your health. They use it to purify drinking water as well, but it's just not my thing. If I don't need to in a DTW system I'd be happy to leave it as is. I think a bubbler would be sufficient for my DTW reservoir right?

any means of circualtion will help out. especially with respect to keeping things in solution.
i prefer a cheap aquarium pump personally. but a bubbler would work i guess.
they just get annoying as they clog fairly often, and require acid baths to get them running well again.

bleach itself is largley harmless, however its the byproducts of HClO disinfection are not. there are halogenated compounds that are carcinogenic at certain levels. however your water qualiy governing body should be testing for these regularly.
http://www.epa.gov/enviro/html/icr/dbp_health.html

these byproducts are a result of poor disinfection levels and technique.

alot of eco people hate that their water is chlorinated... but what do you think they want more... clean safe water? or chlorine free water and a chance of Cholera.

however you are not eating the chlorinated fertilizer solution. you are eating the plants that consume the solution. you will be very hard pressed to demonstrate that any of these compounds are going to be present at all in plant tissue.

regarding acid:
HCl is just an acid really. its only downside is it adds chloride to your solution. however provided you dont use like liters of it, the added chloride will be negligible.
One can argue that cheap technical grades of HCL such as those that you use in pool is not food grade... and hence can contain some contaminates, but i say so what? Im not drinking the stuff, the plants are, and at diluted levels. what ever contaminates they contain will be related to manufacture, so its NOT going to contain dioxine or some harsh compounds like that... as if they could survive in a bottle of acid.

i swim in a pool that has 3/4 gallons of HCL added to it almost monthly. am i supposed to loose sleep over some ridiculously remote risk, when im breathing polluted houston air each and every day?

try some hydro phosphoric acid. i think you will be suprised how much of it you go through. when i started out i used a third of a bottle in 30 gallon one batch. that bottle was like 10 bucks. i do have insanely hard water tho.
if you have the money use what ever you want to, its all your choice.