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the "chilli tester" gadget

I have seen from data from this as I have sent samples to the company developing the device. The quick and dirty... about $5000 for the device, $10-$20 per test plus the cost of consumables. Also, you need a laboratory environment to do the testing in since you need some very accurate and sensitive measurement tools. HPLC is still the most affordable way to go if you don't own or have access to a laboratory.
 
Naga Chomper said:
Wow!  The extremely hot Bird's Eye chili is an impressive 100,000 Scoville units!!!!!
 
I wander if that is it's limit.
Click to expand...
 
Nope, it can go much higher. I think it actually gives a reading in PPM, which multiplied by 16 gives you SHU. So in theory, it should be able to read nearly 16,000,000 SHU.
 
Idiot Piquant said:
http://biox.com.sg/demo/
 
A research lab tool that does not require HPLC is going to open up some doors for some labs. 
 
Still pretty cool! 
Click to expand...
 
I have to respectfully disagree. At the moment, this device isn't much cheaper than some HPLC machines, plus the carbon nanotube test strips are pretty expensive. Also taking into account that HPLC can test so many other compounds where this only tests pungency.
 
Once they get the price down, I think you will be right, it will open up some doors mainly with co-packers and food production companies that don't have an HPLC and don't need one. I think most labs these days already have HPLC, they are pretty common from what I understand.
 
Hopefully Dr. Nigel will pop round at some point, I know he has thoughts on this device.
 
Would love to hear the good Dr.'s opinion!  I am chasing down some details on this myself, today. 
 
Agreed that HPLC is a more flexible tool.
Can you direct me to an HPLC system for $5k?  I would sincerely like to see it! 
 
Prost!
 
Sorry, I should have been more clear, you won't find a top of the line brand spanking new HPLC for $5000, probably not even for $10,000 but you don't have a $10-20 per test operating cost either.
 
You can pick up lots of older, used, HPLC systems in that price range though
 
http://www.equipnet.com/varian-prostar-hplc-system_listid_385262/
 
http://www.equipnet.com/varian-prostar-hplc-system_listid_385252/
 
http://www.biosurplus.com/store/products/5013824-rainin-hplc-system/
 
Please note, I have almost zero lab experience/knowledge so these may not be machines that would even work for this purpose, I am just going by what some laboratory techs have told me.
 
is this one of those colorimetric reagent based tests?
 
why bother, didnt someone say you can get pepper flesh legit  HPLC tested for like 75 bucks?
 
it is absolutly not practical to buy an HPLC machine... while you can buy nasty old machines for a few grand. getting them up to date and interfaced with a computer from this decade will cost you a grip, and a lot of headache. lol some of the really old GC machines ive seen outputted data do these cool old paper plotters only.
 
some machines are stand alone... an will only work with very proprietary software and computer hardware that is very hard to find parts/ replacements for.
 
keep in mind... many old machines will not have replacement detectors or other parts available. you will have to retrofit alot of things to get it working in any acceptable manner. 
 
its my understanding that many of these HPLC machines are leased from larger outfits, and serviced from outside firms. the are just really expensive sensitive machines.  
 
HPLC grade solvents cost a grip as well....
 
IMO if you are chemistry curious, look at the older packed column GC machines that use the real simple thermal conductivity sensors. they are very easy to fix, very easy to deal with, and cost very little to run. you can even pack your own columns if you really want.
an older GC machine can be had in acceptable condition for 300 bucks. a tank of helium etc fancy two stage regulator will cost you atleast another 300 bucks.
 
I am not suggesting anyone purchase any of these things. The moral of the story is that there still isn't a "at-home" method for testing, which is what most "chili-heads" are going to think the instant the see a hand held "chili tester". At least, that is what I thought the first time I saw this thing.
 
This handheld device does seem to work, but anyone that pays $5000 for it, then $20 per electrode strip is a complete idiot that has no business using it. You`d also need to spend $3000+++ for extra equipment, like an accurate balance and pipettes, pure solvents and acids. It works based on this,
 
 
Analyst. 2008 Jul;133(7):888-95. doi: 10.1039/b803588a. Epub 2008 May 1.

Carbon nanotube-based electrochemical sensors for quantifying the 'heat' of chilli peppers: the adsorptive stripping voltammetric determination of capsaicin.
Kachoosangi RT, Wildgoose GG, Compton RG.


Source
Department of Chemistry, Physical and Theoretical Chemistry Laboratory, Oxford University, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK OX1 3QZ.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
While a new HPLC system will cost $12k-18k, just as good and a 2-3 year old model can be had for around $5k-$8k. Brian`s links show models that are still in production and most use parts that are freely available. Basically, HPLC hasn`t changed for 25 years. The computers have advanced, but that`s it. The equipment lasts a loooong time. There are certainly lots of trouble-shooting issues with running HPLC regularly, but it`s more to do with simple things and not the equipment itself. 
 
UV detection is the way to go, as Capsaicin has a nice peak in the UV spectrum at 280nm. Using a UV detector at 280mn will exclude many things that will be in the sample you are analysing, so it adds specificity. Electrochemical and conductivity detectors are a pain in the ass to use and will detect everything with no specificity. I`ve done a lot of HPLC (almost everday for 10 years at one point), Gas Chromatography (GC) and even built other high pressure chromatography systems. We also hooked up an HPLC to a Mass Spectrometer before anyone else did (working for a company, so it was proprietary). In 20 years in science I never once even saw a GC that used packed columns, let alone used one. I did know a few people who had, in the early-mid 1970`s. Running GC is a PITA and the sample needs to get into the gas phase before hitting the column. Capillary GC columns are usually 5 metres long and are extremely fragile capillary glass columns.
 
One problem with the handheld device is what happens to the other Capsaicin-family members? Does it detect them too? With HPLC you can detect and quantify all of them and, in all honesty, that`s what people should be doing. I believe it is important to have that data. 
 
With the current capsaicin analysis by HPLC you get capsaicin and dihydrocapsaicin, but not the others. While these 2 components usually account for 90% of the casaicinoids, the data for the others should be right there and easy to see, not ignored. 
 
Sure, HPLC-grade solvents are expensive ($100 per litre). You need HPLC-grade water, too. HPLC is normally run at 1ml per minute and a normal run would take 30-60 minutes. The costs mount up quickly. HPLC columns are around $250-$300 each, too. Those should last 1000 runs or so, but it depends on the sample quality and how good the user is. 
 
Does anyone have a question about all this? If I can answer you, I will.
Using Mass Spectrometry does show a lot of promise, but a Mass Spectrometer will run you $1 million or more. If you have the money to buy one, call me first so I can sell you beachfront property in Arizona.
 
hehe, i think the reason you havent seen a packed column GC is because they are pretty terrible from an analytical standpoint. they are great however for a classroom environment, which is why im guessing you have not seen any? been out of school a while eh? lol.
 
hell they even make mini packed GC's that run on atmospheric air. cost about 2k new tho.
 
with respect to these crude GC machines, id have to disagree that they are a pain in the ass. they are dead stupid simple, just take a look at  the glowmac units that are so popular. the internals look like a 1950's kitchen appliance.   they are not efficient at all tho, poor resolution, and require a large sample... take like 15 minutes to run.
 
im not suggesting they be used for capsacin tho... all the gc i was exposed to was pretty much analyzing volatile organic solvents. i guess you could? but i just dont know anywhere near enough to guess how it could be done. i doubt a packed column could be useful for anything significantly complex like a pepper extract.
 
 
i do have a question for you tho.
 
the HPLC machines are getting a quantitative measurement based on how long the peaks hang around during a known flow rate?
by this i man they are just measuring the area under the peaks to get a total quantity?
 
LOL. I`ve only run capillary GC, which is fine when it`s working,  but a PITA when it isn`t. You are right, I`m sure packed-column GC are excellent for a classroom setting and Yes, it`s been a little while since I was in the classroom as a student. Going on decades, in fact.........
 
The big problem with GC is getting your sample into the gaseous phase. Sometimes, the samples won`t give consistent results because of their lack or inconsistent movement into the gas used as the mobile phase. You then need to subject the sample to further chemical derivitisation to get it into the gas phase. It`s doable, but introduces another step with inherent variability. I doubt that would happen with capsaicin, but you never know until you do it. 
 
Yes, area under the peak is calculated via integration software. You run a standard in differing concentrations plus an internal standard at the same concentration, in triplicate and construct a standard curve. You should also include an internal standard in the sample before you do anything to it (like drying or extractions), then you can control for any manipulation and extraction efficiencies. Without running the standard curve every single day you have samples to analyse, the data are basically meaningless. You can get relative amounts, i.e. 70% cap, 23% dihydrocap etc, but not mass quantities. 
 
i think i understand what you are saying, but you are starting to get beyond me with the chemistry rhetoric. im just a lowley engineering student you see, ive only had sophmore level chem courses. im trying to reason through what you are saying so bear with me.
 
by 'standard' you are referring to a standard chemical of known concentration and or purity? like a calibration solution for EC instruments correct?
 
when you are saying you run three calibrations at various concentrations im assuming this is to build a model using the standard deviations of the results of the three runs? im guessing with that you can project the results to pretty much any concentration? that makes sense to me if i understand you correctly. 
kinda sorta like a 3 point non linear calibration curve for a really nice ph electrode lol... the electrode is not perfect hence its mV readings vary outside of the mathematical model at different ph... so your saying at varying concentrations the detector reads slightly different peak values, this "calibration", if you will tolerate the term, corrects for that?
 
when you say internal standard i think you mean that you basically add a small bit of what i assume is  something chemically similar, of a known volume and purity and you can get a benchmark result that is constant regardless of the work up to the HPLC injection? then i guess you can subtract this known volume from the sample readings?
 
so say i add 10mg to a sample, filter it, dry it, and centrifuge it etc, then analyize it... find its peak, and note that it now contains only 8mg? so i bump the entire mass of the other stuff... that is the stuff you are interested in by 10/8?
 
you make the whole process sound terrible, but i was told that modern HPLC machines with autoloaders and auto samplers etc all the good stuff, can do this by them selves?
 
on an unrelated note, these machines appear like they are highly modular? how hard is it to say... swap in a different detector? i always wondered if these machines could be added into an actual process design. What i mean is, can they be set up autonomously and allowed to sample a reaction periodically to for example... to determine the products of, or completeness of a reaction? im thinking they could be incorporated into a control system pretty easily, and without much supervision.
 
what do you guys do with your waste solvents? it always made me sad in lab when we would boil off solvents into open air, just to strip an extract. cant you just rotovap the waste solvent and reuse it as like...technical grade for cruder work? is this common in commercial lab work? or do you guys juts call safety-clean or whomever. 
ive asked this question to like 3 different professors/lab instructors and they just shrug at me.
 
in commercial practices i imagine almost all waste solvents are recycled and reused in some manner considering how insanely expensive it is to pay a company to dispose of it for you is... and im imagine the act of "disposing", is really just a good fractional or continuous distillation, and clean up with IER resins or w/e. 
 
Yes, you do understand!
 
Ideally you would use a standard of known purity and concentration for every different metabolite of capsaicin, but that isn`t possible, as they are not commercially available. It would probably take 6 months to just make the standards and quantify them, which just isn`t worthwhile in this case. I once spent a year making radio-labelled HPLC standards for some important research, but that was an extremely rare thing. You would just use capsaicin and assume the absorbance at 280nm was the same for all the metabolites. 
 
Yes, the internal standard is a related substance with as close to the same chemical properties as possible. Vanillylamide of n-nonanoic acid is the one usually used. It gives you a control for extraction efficiency, solubilisation and all the sample manipulations etc that the other capsaicinoids go through.
 
With the standard curve you need to be working within the linear range of the detector, which for UV is very large. 
 
To work up a new analytical method can take 1 month - 6 months full time, depending on what you are doing. Once you`ve worked it all out you can then go to auto injectors, auto-data collection etc.
 
Yes, HPLC is very modular. It`s very simple to swap out detectors, pumps, injectors and columns in 10 minutes or so. They are used all the time to do the sampling you suggest to monitor chemical reactions etc.
 
I`ve worked in Academia and Industry. Nobody recycles solvents, it is way too expensive, even with the disposal costs. We used to have a service that disposed of all the waste solvents in accordance with HazMat laws. It is illegal in most places to dump stuff down the sinks. With small amounts of solvents (100ml or less) we used to put them in a laminar flow/exhaust hood and allow them to evaporate. Large production facilities might recycle solvents, but I don`t know for sure.
 
I heard back from Kim at Bio-X. Here is the weblink:  http://biox.com.sg
 
The unit costs US$3,500. The electrodes are $0.15 - $0.20 each, depending upon quantity purchased. 
 
The procedure looks quick, simple and they claim measurement accuracy +/- 10%. 
 
Busy at the moment but will try to test this out with the company (have an invitation from them to do so). Will post results i.e. comparison with HPLC, if/when I get this done.
 
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