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Yellow Primo ?

Question about colours in general. Why is it when a pod variant throws out a natural yellow child that not only does it seem to effect colouring , but pod shape, skin texture and even wall structure.. A good red primo is the pimpliest , long tailed hard but thin walled pod in the world.. Make a natural yellow variant and the tail is thick , skin is smoother and glossy, walls are softer and more rubbery ...

Does the cellular structure of yellow at a molecular level Change so much of the makeup of a pod that it's almost unrecognisable as the same strain, or is it something more sinister? Not natural??

And I know there are good yellow pods that represent the primo line well, but in general it's seems theres a significant difference .
 
moruga welder said:
why didn't you say something my friend ? i might have a few seeds left .     :onfire:
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Thank you so much, Frank, but my grow is already set for the season. I may hit you up on this fr next year if I can't snag some pods  :)
 
meinchoh said:
Thank you so much, Frank, but my grow is already set for the season. I may hit you up on this fr next year if I can't snag some pods  :)
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n.p. my friend !   hope for a good grow ! got to get some sun and warmth first lol !     :onfire:
 
Just an observation here.... I think a lot of people are vastly underestimating the frequency with which peppers cross pilinate with their neighbors in the garden. Random mutations in genes like those that determine color do occur, but not often. I'd wager that 99% of the reports like "my reaper has yellow pods" that seem to pop up constantly on these boards are the result of an accidental cross in a previous generation, not a genetic mutation.
 
EBHarvey said:
Just an observation here.... I think a lot of people are vastly underestimating the frequency with which peppers cross pilinate with their neighbors in the garden. Random mutations in genes like those that determine color do occur, but not often. I'd wager that 99% of the reports like "my reaper has yellow pods" that seem to pop up constantly on these boards are the result of an accidental cross in a previous generation, not a genetic mutation.
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Wow your still alive Eli. Go post in the cooking your catch man, need some life in there.
 
Robstar - I agree that people are far too quick to call a happy surprise a new pepper.  Thing is, I like surprises.  i separate them out and see what comes of them.  Part of the fun of seed saving is trying to refine your dna year after year, but the occasional side step is fun too.

EBHarvey - Right on.  Many people seem to read self pollinating and think that means insects and wind do not exist.  Sad because effective isolation does not mean you have to have a different green house for every variety.  No reason people can not practice basic seed saving techniques. But I do think there are often recessive genes at work when there is an unexpected color.  I dont think anything short of a clone is totally stable.
 
KrakenPeppers said:
Question about colours in general. Why is it when a pod variant throws out a natural yellow child that not only does it seem to effect colouring , but pod shape, skin texture and even wall structure.. A good red primo is the pimpliest , long tailed hard but thin walled pod in the world.. Make a natural yellow variant and the tail is thick , skin is smoother and glossy, walls are softer and more rubbery ...

Does the cellular structure of yellow at a molecular level Change so much of the makeup of a pod that it's almost unrecognisable as the same strain, or is it something more sinister? Not natural??

And I know there are good yellow pods that represent the primo line well, but in general it's seems theres a significant difference .
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It's highly unlikely they are natural color variants. I think they got crossed with a yellow pepper somewhere down the line.
 
Dulac said:
 
It's highly unlikely they are natural color variants. I think they got crossed with a yellow pepper somewhere down the line.
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Exactly... That was my underlining point, new colour Is so often not a natural phono change but a cross
 
EBHarvey said:
 
 ha!  what's new devan?  I still owe you some sauce...
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same old same old. We are going to have one hell of a mud season here this year. it's snowing now and still have 2ft of snow on the garden. hopefully I can get plants in the ground by june..  :P    hope all is well with you and the family
 
KrakenPeppers said:
And I know there are good yellow pods that represent the primo line well, but in general it's seems theres a significant difference .
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Had so called yellow primos from 3 different sources last year. My opinion is these peppers are not true primos but most likely a cross. No pimples, much larger, smooth skin, taste way different, heat way lower. They did have nice tails on them though.
 
Would love to try a true yellow primo...
 
cloudhand said:
 
Had so called yellow primos from 3 different sources last year. My opinion is these peppers are not true primos but most likely a cross. No pimples, much larger, smooth skin, taste way different, heat way lower. They did have nice tails on them though.
 
Would love to try a true yellow primo...
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That's my point exactly, there appears to be the crosses that bred out smooth, thick and shiny with different flavours and all.. Then there are the odd few that threw out a true looking primo.. And I highly doubt those are stable so the next gen will have similar variance from seeds
 
cloudhand said:
 
Had so called yellow primos from 3 different sources last year. My opinion is these peppers are not true primos but most likely a cross. No pimples, much larger, smooth skin, taste way different, heat way lower. They did have nice tails on them though.
 
Would love to try a true yellow primo...
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probably 20% of the plants I grow every year end up being off-types - maybe I should sell some seeds from past season's oddities...I got a fat-tailed yellow brain strain (almost certainly a datil cross which is fantastically flavored fwiw), a red MOA, a giant primo (probably a jamaican hot chocolate cross), and a red chocolate bhut (antillais carribean cross based on proximity to each other that year).  I can sell the f2 seeds then act surprised when people post that they didn't get what they expected.  :high-five:
 
I have posted elsewhere about hybrids & outcrosses but will add some of the info to this thread.
 
Outcrosses and hybrids are not as straight forward as most people suspect they are.  Most gardeners think it is a case of taking entity A and crossing it with entity B and voila!  I have a thing.  Yes you do but it is a mess.  Look at the Reaper.  Classic case of AxB.  It is unstable.  (And let's not get into an argument about this - trawl the net - evidence is rampant -THSC even have a "Bhut" Reaper from the seed they grew).
 
To achieve stability one must line (pedigree) breed A until ALL its progeny are identical.  Same with B.  Of course you are going to sow seed based on the phenotype you are looking for (more about this shortly) and then select from there until after numerous generations you have a predictable outcome - the plants have the traits you are looking for.  Of course you will have numerous other lines that come out of this process - some of which are worthy of introduction in their right.
 
"Identical" is a long process - you will need to select the traits and continue.  It does not imply that by taking all the seed from all the progeny and sowing that eventually you will have a uniform swarm - not possible.  You have to select for traits and continue those lines un til they are uniform.
 
Now when you do cross the A that has the traits you desire with B that has the traits you desire you should arrive far more rapidly at your goal, C.  Of course so many gardeners don't actually have a goal in mind.  They just cross or hybridise for the mischive of it - I know of some very good products that were achieved this way.  of course there is still selecting of the progeny that must continue until C is refined and stable (8-9 generations).
 
The key is to breed homozygous entities.  If the entities are heterozygous then there will be more variation - which is totally unpredictable.
 
But of course there is always a catch.  We know that there are genes that control traits.  But there are different versions of these genes called alleles - as an example a garden pea has about 14 different alleles that control chlorophyll synthesis!  Now take into account that there are numerous traits and for each of these there are numerous alleles and suddenly AxB becomes very complicated.  By selecting for one trait what are we doing to others?  Of course this process happens - sow enough seed from as many different parents as you can and continue along this path and you most certainly will induce all manner of things.  We grow a small amount of seed of already recognisable lines.  Open it up and all manner of recombinations appear.
 
The expression of yellow is one such trait.  But at what cost?  It is yellow but other traits that were present in the original parents is now not expressed.  The most obvious of these is pungency.  There are no yellow chili that are as hot as their red counterpart. 
 
The expression of yellow in the Primo would most likely be at the cost of other expressions due to the recombination that favours the yellow allele.  So gone is the pimply exterior etc.
 
I doubt that these yellow Primo are multiple outcrosses.  Otherwise the whole swarm would have been variable.  But they haven't been.  It is always a yellow phenotype in a field of normal red phenotypes.
 
@RobStar - very nice explanation and information. Just wondering where this yellow in the Primo came from then if not an outcross. Maybe the original parents had an outcross in them? I thought the parents were stable... maybe not? 
 
Thanks cloudhand! 
 
The Primo's parents (Naga Morich x Red 7 Pot) were in all likelihood not line bred first.  My Primo's show three distinct phenotypes:  (1) archetype - the real deal, all bumpy and pimply with long tails (2) Naga-shaped, bumpy, orange-red (3) Scorpion/Bonnet shaped with a tail but smoother and deeper red.  Oddly, #2 & #3 bear more heavily than #1 so I don't mind keeping them for sauce production.
 
Given that the yellow allele is present in all the domesticated Capsicum species, the chance exists for it to express itself.  The 7 Pot and the Bhut - which have both been in hobbyists hands for a while now are available in all the colour expressions that are carried by the genotype.  In other words - it is present in all chili but the right combination of expressions must be present in the recombination in order for it to be expressed.
 
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