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fermenting fermented vs non fermented sauce
- Thread starter SavinaRed
- Start date
salsalady
Business Member
YES! Fermented sauces have a certain...bite... that is different from non-fermented sauces. One of the most common is Sriracha. THe rooster sauce with the green cap has one of the most recognizable fermented flavors.
Some like it, some don't. There's been much discussion of this topic in Fermenting Peppers 101.
Here's some more info from Weights and Measures...
What's the difference between fermenting a sauce and just cooking a sauce?
In order to be considered safe to be stored for an extended period of time, sauces need to have a low pH. pH numbers indicate the levels of acidity or alkalinity in foods or other things like hydroponics, fish tanks, etc. Neutral pH is 7.0. Things with a pH of above 7.0 are alkaline, things below 7.0 are acidic. Sauces should be below 4.0 (minimum), preferable below 3.5 pH, to be considered safe to process/can/bottle and be considered shelf stable.
2 ways to lower the pH of foods is by fermentation or by adding acids. Fermentation uses good bacteria to eat up the natural sugars in chiles and other produce to the point where the pH is below 4.0 and considered safe. Kimchee and sauerkraut also use fermentation for food preservation.
Fermentation requires time, anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months, but once it's properly done, the resulting product has a low pH and can be processed or refrigerated without the addition of any other vinegar or acids.
The other method of getting a safe pH in a sauce or product is to simply add vinegar or lemon juice to pods/produce. Using vinegar to lower the pH is quick, the sauce can be cooked, bottled and eaten immediately.
Fermenting Peppers 101 is an excellent tutorial on fermentation.
What is a mash?
Technically, a "mash" is anything that is ground up very fine, it refers to texture and consistency. A "mash" does not automatically mean the ground up stuff is fermented!
Lots of chiles are sold commercially as "Mash" and there are any number of combinations of ground up chiles, some with salt, some without salt, some with vinegar, some without, some fermented, some not.....It's an ongoing process to make people aware that "mash" does not mean "fermented". A lot of people assume mash=fermented, but that is not correct.
Some like it, some don't. There's been much discussion of this topic in Fermenting Peppers 101.
Here's some more info from Weights and Measures...
What's the difference between fermenting a sauce and just cooking a sauce?
In order to be considered safe to be stored for an extended period of time, sauces need to have a low pH. pH numbers indicate the levels of acidity or alkalinity in foods or other things like hydroponics, fish tanks, etc. Neutral pH is 7.0. Things with a pH of above 7.0 are alkaline, things below 7.0 are acidic. Sauces should be below 4.0 (minimum), preferable below 3.5 pH, to be considered safe to process/can/bottle and be considered shelf stable.
2 ways to lower the pH of foods is by fermentation or by adding acids. Fermentation uses good bacteria to eat up the natural sugars in chiles and other produce to the point where the pH is below 4.0 and considered safe. Kimchee and sauerkraut also use fermentation for food preservation.
Fermentation requires time, anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months, but once it's properly done, the resulting product has a low pH and can be processed or refrigerated without the addition of any other vinegar or acids.
The other method of getting a safe pH in a sauce or product is to simply add vinegar or lemon juice to pods/produce. Using vinegar to lower the pH is quick, the sauce can be cooked, bottled and eaten immediately.
Fermenting Peppers 101 is an excellent tutorial on fermentation.
What is a mash?
Technically, a "mash" is anything that is ground up very fine, it refers to texture and consistency. A "mash" does not automatically mean the ground up stuff is fermented!
Lots of chiles are sold commercially as "Mash" and there are any number of combinations of ground up chiles, some with salt, some without salt, some with vinegar, some without, some fermented, some not.....It's an ongoing process to make people aware that "mash" does not mean "fermented". A lot of people assume mash=fermented, but that is not correct.
salsalady
Business Member
That's pretty much it.
Not all non-fermented sauces that contain vinegar taste like vinegar, though. There's always a balance. And once the fermented sauce is cooked and packed, the healthy bacteria are killed. Foods that contain the Good Bugs are things like kimchee, and sauerkraut which are kept uncooked and refrigerated.
Not all non-fermented sauces that contain vinegar taste like vinegar, though. There's always a balance. And once the fermented sauce is cooked and packed, the healthy bacteria are killed. Foods that contain the Good Bugs are things like kimchee, and sauerkraut which are kept uncooked and refrigerated.
Tabasco is not cooked or hot bottled. Just FYI.
Also do not confuse fermented with aged. Hot sauce can be aged for years. It can also be made from a ferment that was made days earlier.
Yes, a lot of saucemakers and co-packers buy pepper mash in 5 gallon pails. This is fermented or not fermented. You can buy it in salt or vinegar. Mash is just the term for the physical state of the pepper. Like mashed potatoes.salsalady said:
Also do not confuse fermented with aged. Hot sauce can be aged for years. It can also be made from a ferment that was made days earlier.
Tabasco ages in oak whiskey barrels sealed with inches of salt. This lasts up to 3 years, then they put it in these huge vats with vinegar and it is slow stirred for 1 month. Then strained to remove any pieces that did not break down, and bottled.
Other popular Louisiana style sauces use "aged cayenne peppers." Similar methods.
Other popular Louisiana style sauces use "aged cayenne peppers." Similar methods.
There's no real way to describe it you just have to try it. All Good things come to those who wait.
it really is wonderful!! Love my basic quick sauces and even those once bottled I give 5/6 weeks to age just get better and better! Just waiting that kills ya and that sweet and tangy aroma drives me crazy lol.
Plus it's fun especially with kids my nephew loves to make ferments with me have a special batch he's making on his own cut down on the heat lots of garlic and red bells carrots,onion, etc bragging to his friends about being a chili head and how he's making his own hot sauce.
Teacher at his school has him bring photos and teaching his science glass about fermenting. Kids love to watch the process and are fascinated by the whole thing. Starting a whole new generation of chili head's and future THP MEMBERS.
it really is wonderful!! Love my basic quick sauces and even those once bottled I give 5/6 weeks to age just get better and better! Just waiting that kills ya and that sweet and tangy aroma drives me crazy lol. Plus it's fun especially with kids my nephew loves to make ferments with me have a special batch he's making on his own cut down on the heat lots of garlic and red bells carrots,onion, etc bragging to his friends about being a chili head and how he's making his own hot sauce.
Teacher at his school has him bring photos and teaching his science glass about fermenting. Kids love to watch the process and are fascinated by the whole thing.
Starting a whole new generation of chili head's and future THP MEMBERS.
So....if one does not have a PH test kit...about how much vinegar can do the job of lowering PH? Or how do we know the PH is not right in the first place? I did my first ferments a couple weeks ago, they bubbled up pretty good and then kinda stopped...so I guess at that point I could have gone without vinegar but I didn't cause I wanted to be SURE of a good product...but I had no idea how much to add. Anyway, all was good but I don't like the guessing gameSavinaRed said:
So, guess my question is: is there a standard rule of how much vinegar to add to a ferment to consider it safe?
kjwalker said:So....if one does not have a PH test kit...about how much vinegar can do the job of lowering PH? Or how do we know the PH is not right in the first place? I did my first ferments a couple weeks ago, they bubbled up pretty good and then kinda stopped...so I guess at that point I could have gone without vinegar but I didn't cause I wanted to be SURE of a good product...but I had no idea how much to add. Anyway, all was good but I don't like the guessing game
So, guess my question is: is there a standard rule of how much vinegar to add to a ferment to consider it safe?
Sirex is correct but you should always test it to make certain, especially if it's your first time making a recipe. I have some that I can process at 45 days while I have others that need to go 90 days. It's mostly dependent on the amount of sugars in the mash.
kjwalker said:
The cold doesn't kill them it causes them to go dormant but the fermentation process will continue so long as there are sugars left to process. After that it's aging.
SavinaRed said:
Not really, if you start your next ferment a day or 2 after you process one then your enjoying the fruits of your labor as your next one is working. I find it best to have a place where it's out of sight though so that you're not constantly looking at it or even worse smelling it, that can be a sweet torture. In our last house I had a great spot in the garage. I went out one day to put my newest ferment in and found one I had forgotten about and had been there about 5 or 6 months, dang it was good too
I started a new thread on fermentation containers, let me know what you think. Thx !RocketMan said:
Not really, if you start your next ferment a day or 2 after you process one then your enjoying the fruits of your labor as your next one is working. I find it best to have a place where it's out of sight though so that you're not constantly looking at it or even worse smelling it, that can be a sweet torture. In our last house I had a great spot in the garage. I went out one day to put my newest ferment in and found one I had forgotten about and had been there about 5 or 6 months, dang it was good too
cpneto said:
I've seen it on ingredient lists of some hot sauces in the past, but I've no idea if they used citric acid specifically to avoid using large amounts of vinegar. Some people enjoy a vinegar flavor profile, some don't. Fermentation adds a similar vinegar-y tang, and I'd venture to guess that citric acid would as well in my opinion.