heat Seven Pod is the "World's Hottest" and it was developed by Amerindians.

Spicegeist

Spicegeist

*Edit: this topic started as an attempt to clarify the naming of this pepper, but through the clarification, some interesting connections became apparent...
 
 
I've been calling this TS Morouga Blend because that's how I received my original seed, but this year I think I'll just call it Seven Pod Moruga.  Seems there's still a bit of diversity in naming out there (as of 27 December):
 
Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend
http://thehippyseedcompany.com/product/trinidad-scorpion-morouga-blend/
 
Trinidad Scorpion Moruga
http://www.junglerain.com.au/product/chilli-seeds/species/capsicum-chinense/trinidad-scorpion-moruga-detail
 
Moruga Scorpion Red
http://pepperlover.com/pepper-seeds/trinidad-pepper/moruga-scorpion-detail
 
And then there's this which I've also seen published, but which just strikes me as odd:
Trinidad Moruga Scorpion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_moruga_scorpion
 
I was originally asking whether anyone had given this some thought and come up with a good naming system... but I think I've got it straightened out now (see post #14).
 
teguhraharjo said:
CARDI said : Many seed companies have been selling “Moruga scorpion” which does not exist. (page 4)

http://www.cardi.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/07/GENUINE-CARIBBEAN-HOT-PEPPER-SEED-PRODUCED-AND-SOLD-BY-CARDI-25jul2014.pdf

What about that?

 
Click to expand...
 
Ok, they're referring to the other pepper named Moruga... there are two that have that name.  The Moruga Red mentioned in that brochure is a different pepper, but yes contains the word "Moruga," so it is confusing.
Here's more about the Moruga Red mentioned in the brochure:
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/4853-yellow-morouga/?p=96932
 
Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend aka Trinidad Scorpion Moruga aka Moruga Scorpion Red aka Trinidad Moruga Scorpion was unofficial World Record Holder. While Cardi claimed their Red Scorpion is > 2 million SHU and their MORUGA RED is 300,000- 500,000 SHU.
 
is Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend aka Trinidad Scorpion Moruga aka Moruga Scorpion Red aka Trinidad Moruga Scorpion a cross between "pure" red scorpion  and "pure" moruga red?
 
more confusing.
 
teguhraharjo said:
 

Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend aka Trinidad Scorpion Moruga aka Moruga Scorpion Red aka Trinidad Moruga Scorpion was unofficial World Record Holder. While Cardi claimed their Red Scorpion is > 2 million SHU and their MORUGA RED is 300,000- 500,000 SHU.
 
is Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend aka Trinidad Scorpion Moruga aka Moruga Scorpion Red aka Trinidad Moruga Scorpion a cross between "pure" red scorpion  and "pure" moruga red?
 
more confusing.

 
Click to expand...
 
 
As far as I understand it they are two different peppers:
 
1) TS Moruga (what I am talking about here in this thread), and
2) CARDI Moruga Red (not what I am talking about)
 
I'll translate a post by Claudio (Lonewolf), a member of THP but also president of the Italian association Pepperfriends, which is very fond of Capsicum history and origins, and he says what he knows about the Morouga/Moruga.
Hope this could help
 
http://www.pepperfriends.com/forum/topic/12899-trinidad-moruga-scorpion/?p=357776
 
 
"Few years ago CARDI stabilzed some pure varieties, among them Scorpion and 7Pod, but never released seeds (at least not outside Trinidad).
All the original seeds of these varieties came outside Trinidad thanks to chili enthusiasts (particularly Sara, Trinihottie), often from non-isolated pods.
 
Morouga Blend is the name given to Moruga by cmpman1974 when he released seeds back in 2008: the original label was "Morouga Blend: Scorpion x 7Pod"
I think what we call Morouga/Moruga is the real 7Pod (according to description files by CARDI), whereas Moruga does exist in Trinidad but is a kind of Habanero (not a superhot)
CARDI's Scorpion has a very little tail, it's more a tip: the other varieties, as the Butch T are all hybrids, more or less stable.
7Pod came outside Trinidad thanks to Allen Boatman: it does not match any pure line from CARDI, so i think it's an hybrid, probably between a Scorpion and an Habanero: it may be something completely different too, not described by CARDI.
The Douglah was unknown to CARDI when we already were growing it, even if then files from CARDI talked about it as a Typical variety of the Island.
Probably it is an hybrid between a 7Pod and an Habanero Chocolate"
 
Whoa.

Red Trinidad Moruga Scorpion = Original Red 7 Pot/Pod?

So I receive Red Moruga pods... They are most likely Red Moruga Blend or 7 Pot?

In the end, maybe it doesn't matter. If you have a really hot pepper that you enjoy, maybe it doesn't matter what you call it... except that sorting & obsessing & research is half the fun to me. :)
 
coachspencerxc said:
Whoa.

Red Trinidad Moruga Scorpion = Original Red 7 Pot/Pod?

So I receive Red Moruga pods... They are most likely Red Moruga Blend or 7 Pot?

In the end, maybe it doesn't matter. If you have a really hot pepper that you enjoy, maybe it doesn't matter what you call it... except that sorting & obsessing & research is half the fun to me. :)
Click to expand...
 
Red Morouga should be technically, the non-superhot pepper we've mentioned above, but nowadays with the popularity of the TS Moruga, it probably is the superhot with just a creative name given to it.  Some things don't matter to some people, of course ;)
 
 
Guitarman said:
I'll translate a post by Claudio (Lonewolf), a member of THP but also president of the Italian association Pepperfriends, which is very fond of Capsicum history and origins, and he says what he knows about the Morouga/Moruga.
Hope this could help
 
http://www.pepperfriends.com/forum/topic/12899-trinidad-moruga-scorpion/?p=357776
 
 
"Few years ago CARDI stabilzed some pure varieties, among them Scorpion and 7Pod, but never released seeds (at least not outside Trinidad).
All the original seeds of these varieties came outside Trinidad thanks to chili enthusiasts (particularly Sara, Trinihottie), often from non-isolated pods.
 
Morouga Blend is the name given to Moruga by cmpman1974 when he released seeds back in 2008: the original label was "Morouga Blend: Scorpion x 7Pod"
I think what we call Morouga/Moruga is the real 7Pod (according to description files by CARDI), whereas Moruga does exist in Trinidad but is a kind of Habanero (not a superhot)
CARDI's Scorpion has a very little tail, it's more a tip: the other varieties, as the Butch T are all hybrids, more or less stable.
7Pod came outside Trinidad thanks to Allen Boatman: it does not match any pure line from CARDI, so i think it's an hybrid, probably between a Scorpion and an Habanero: it may be something completely different too, not described by CARDI.
The Douglah was unknown to CARDI when we already were growing it, even if then files from CARDI talked about it as a Typical variety of the Island.
Probably it is an hybrid between a 7Pod and an Habanero Chocolate"
Click to expand...
 
Wow Guitarman, thanks a lot, that helps!  This helps me connect why the 7 Pot Brainstrain and the TS Moruga are so similar...
 
Spicegeist said:
 
Red Morouga should be technically, the non-superhot pepper we've mentioned above, but nowadays with the popularity of the TS Moruga, it probably is the superhot with just a creative name given to it.  Some things don't matter to some people, of course ;)
Click to expand...
Right, but given Guitarman's post, would what "we" call "Red Moruga" be more accurately called "Red Moruga Blend" or is it simply "7 Pot?" I assumed there were 3 peppers:
 
A) Trinidad Moruga Scorpion, Red
B) Trinidad Moruga Scorpion Blend
C) 7 Pot, Red
 
Given that post, I wonder if there is such thing at the first one- or if A & C are interchangeable. Hmm... Maybe I'm reading it wrong or don't know the history well too.
 
Also, I've never seen a Trinidad Scorpion CARDI in person. Growing the yellow & red right now, but they are babies. Pictures I've seen show a tail but this post says they don't have much of a tail. 
 
coachspencerxc said:
Right, but given Guitarman's post, would what "we" call "Red Moruga" be more accurately called "Red Moruga Blend" or is it simply "7 Pot?" I assumed there were 3 peppers:
 
A) Trinidad Moruga Scorpion, Red
B) Trinidad Moruga Scorpion Blend
C) 7 Pot, Red
 
Given that post, I wonder if there is such thing at the first one- or if A & C are interchangeable. Hmm... Maybe I'm reading it wrong or don't know the history well too.
 
Also, I've never seen a Trinidad Scorpion CARDI in person. Growing the yellow & red right now, but they are babies. Pictures I've seen show a tail but this post says they don't have much of a tail. 
Click to expand...
 
So there is a pepper, basically just like a red hab called Moruga, so that's not a superhot.  That's the Moruga Red.
 
What we're trying to get at here is that pepper, which goes by various names (see my original post above), which according to Guitarman's post was originally perhaps a cross between a 7 Pot and a Scorpion... check out that link Guitarman just posted (cmpman1974 post #50).
 
But I have to say, it really looks more like a 7 Pot, doesn't it?  In fact identical from what I've grown.  Maybe I'll break new ground and call it 7 Pot Moruga :?:   Also, peppers like 7 Pot Primo look a more like the Scorpion... :think:
 
I'm still curious if anyone has any good naming system ideas.
 
Some interesting tidbits from CARDI material*:
 
"Meanwhile in Trinidad and Tobago, the authorities are actively pursuing an intellectual property claim on the Scorpion variety."
 
Here's what that looks like:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at14945PM_zps6a5715e1.png

 
Now, as for the Seven Pod, this apparently is a landrace variety:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at14342PM_zps5cf8f7d6.png

 
Here's what these look like:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at14311PM_zps462be392.png

 
For those of you who don't know what is meant by landrace and so on:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at43531PM_zps037582b9.png

 
Again, the Brainstrain and the Morouga we're talking about here are practically identical to the Seven Pod landrace.  There ought to be enough variation in landraces to account for the variation we've been seeing.  It seems then that the Scorpion was a selected Seven Pod, perhaps also the Bhut Jolokia is a selected Scorpion or Seven Pod?  Over 37% of the population of Trinidad and Tobago are of Indian descent and most sailed from Calcutta, very near Assam.
 
Here is some detail from a British indenture agreement from 1912, basically after five years of selling yourself into service in a colony such as Trinidad and Tobago, you could return home to India: "Conditions as to return passage-Emigrants may return to India at their own expense after completing five years’ industrial residence in the Colony."
 
IMHO, none of the "world's hottest" since the Bhut Jolokia (i.e. Trinidad Scorpion Butch T, "Trinidad Scorpion Moruga," and the Carolina Reaper) are significantly outside the normal variation you'd expect to find in a landrace pepper to warrant being recognized as something new.  Guinness World Records should recognize this and stop being duped by the latest greedy person seeking to receive the title of "world's hottest."
 
All the "world's hottest" titles since the Bhut Jolokia should be rescinded.  The "world's hottest" is the landrace Seven Pod from Trinidad and Tobago and we have many generations of Amerindians to thank for this, they should get the credit if anyone should.
 
 
*This is where the CARDI material was found:
http://www.cardi.org/cardi-publications/technical-publications/crops/
 
Adams H, Umaharan P, Brathwaite R and Mohammed K. 2007, Reprinted 2011. Hot pepper production manual for Trinidad and Tobago: an output of the CARDI project “Improving the hot pepper industry of Trinidad and Tobago. St. Augustine, Trinidad and Tobago: Caribbean Agricultural Research and Development Institute. PSC #: TT/001/06.  Hot Pepper Production Manual for Trinidad and Tobago 2011 reprint
 
Spicegeist said:
Some interesting tidbits from CARDI material:
 
"Meanwhile in Trinidad and Tobago, the authorities are actively pursuing an intellectual property claim on the Scorpion variety."
 
Here's what that looks like:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at14945PM_zps6a5715e1.png

 
Now, as for the Seven Pod, this apparently is a landrace variety:
[
ScreenShot2014-12-26at14342PM_zps5cf8f7d6.png

 
Here's what these look like:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at14311PM_zps462be392.png

 
For those of you who don't know what is meant by landrace and so on:
ScreenShot2014-12-26at43531PM_zps037582b9.png

 
Again, the Brainstrain and the Morouga we're talking about here are practically identical to the Seven Pod landrace.  There ought to be enough variation in landraces to account for the variation we've been seeing.  It seems then that the Scorpion was a selected Seven Pod, perhaps also the Bhut Jolokia is a selected Scorpion or Seven Pod?  Over 37% of the population of Trinidad and Tobago are of Indian descent and most sailed from Calcutta, very near Assam.
 
Here is some detail from a British indenture agreement from 1912, basically after five years of selling yourself into service in a colony such as Trinidad and Tobago, you could return home to India: "Conditions as to return passage-Emigrants may return to India at their own expense after completing five years’ industrial residence in the Colony."
 
IMHO, none of the "world's hottest" since the Bhut Jolokia (i.e. Trinidad Scorpion Butch T, "Trinidad Scorpion Moruga," and the Carolina Reaper) are significantly outside the normal variation you'd expect to find in a landrace pepper to warrant being recognized as something new.  Guinness World Records should recognize this and stop being duped by the latest greedy person seeking to receive the title of "world's hottest."
 
All the "world's hottest" titles since the Bhut Jolokia should be rescinded.  The "world's hottest" is the landrace Seven Pod from Trinidad and Tobago and we have many generations of Amerindians to thank for this, they should get the credit if anyone should.
Click to expand...
Glad to see this interests other folks. I found seeds for the original CARDI scorpion pictured above. More excited to grow it than any variety out there.


I have read a lot of info tracing the superhot from India to Caribbean and vice versa through the slaves. Very interesting stuff. Add in the fatalii for more confusion.

Hopefully this topic won't get derailed. Way more interesting than the latest world record.
 
Pr0digal_son said:
Glad to see this interests other folks. I found seeds for the original CARDI scorpion pictured above. More excited to grow it than any variety out there.


I have read a lot of info tracing the superhot from India to Caribbean and vice versa through the slaves. Very interesting stuff. Add in the fatalii for more confusion.

Hopefully this topic won't get derailed. Way more interesting than the latest world record.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I don't mean to get into the Fatalii in this thread, BUT I'll bet you could trace it to colonial activities similar to what I suspect happened with the Seven Pod.  Here, have a look at this map indicating a British colonial presence in Africa (not to mention Portuguese, French, etc.), Indians or any other subjects of the crown could have ended up anywhere and back again:
220px-British_Decolonisation_in_Africa.png

 
Of course all the peppers trace back to the Americas.  But in the case of the "world's hottest" I think it's time to give credit where it's due: to the generations of Amerindians who selected and nurtured this landrace variety long before any Europeans set foot in the Americas.
 
Some very interesting info here for sure. Just because I'm damn lazy and can't be bothered searching, has there ever been any DNA tests done between the different varieties to see if there is indeed any difference between them all? Or is it possible that with all the unintentional crosses being passed as pure that it would be damn near impossible to find out?
Agree with prodigal_son as well. Really hope there's no derailment in here. Pepper history and lineage is very interesting.
 
MeatHead1313 said:
Some very interesting info here for sure. Just because I'm damn lazy and can't be bothered searching, has there ever been any DNA tests done between the different varieties to see if there is indeed any difference between them all? Or is it possible that with all the unintentional crosses being passed as pure that it would be damn near impossible to find out?
Agree with prodigal_son as well. Really hope there's no derailment in here. Pepper history and lineage is very interesting.
Click to expand...
 
Despite the popular image of DNA as a solve-all, from what I've read on the subject, Capsicum chinense are so similar they are hard to tell apart...
 
Now of course they are "different," the point I'm making is that they're also obviously so similar to each other as to be from the same stock and similar enough that these past handful of "world's hottest" can be explained as variations on the landrace.  The landrace is strong, and if you get your hands on a few different variations you can purify, cross etc. but the origin of the "world's hottest" is clear and should be made public and well known: the Seven Pod landrace developed over hundreds of years by Amerindians.
 
Spicegeist said:
Despite the popular image of DNA as a solve-all, from what I've read on the subject, Capsicum chinense are so similar they are hard to tell apart...
 
Now of course they are "different," the point I'm making is that they're also obviously so similar to each other as to be from the same stock and similar enough that these past handful of "world's hottest" can be explained as variations on the landrace.  The landrace is strong, and if you get your hands on a few different variations you can purify, cross etc. but the origin of the "world's hottest" is clear and should be made public and well known: the Seven Pod landrace developed over hundreds of years by Amerindians.
Click to expand...
Good info. Being so new to peppers I didn't realise Chinense were difficult to tell apart that way.
 
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