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My Holy Grail for Hot Sauce

R

Redeemer

So this has been discussed a little elsewhere but I figured it might be useful to make a dedicated thread, for my own benefit of being able to go back and review. We all like hoshaker bottle?t sauce right? And the healthful effects of spice are pretty well documented. But so are the health benefits of fermented foods, which, aside from the taste is a reason I got into making kimchi.
 
So the holy grail for me is, to make and ferment a product that can be bottled, and is shelf stable for at least 90 days, un-refrigerated, without having to cook and kill off all the good bacteria. Is this realistic? Attainable? Even if it is, would it even be possible to slow down the bacterial activity enough to prevent exploding the shaker bottle? Is there a happy medium?
 
I've never seen yogurt or kimchi that didn't require refrigeration, but beer and wine don't. Granted its a different organism that I believe is dead at the time of bottling. Is this even worth pursuing?
 
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I'm interested as well. I have a sauce fermenting now for 6 months. A friend of mine doesn't ferment peppers but does kimchi, pickles and other vegetables. He seemed to think it can be refrigerated keeping all the good bacteria for 6 months. I would like to know what our sauce experts think.
 
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I'm interested in the kimchi peppers! I usually buy mine in powdered form from the Korean market on Lamar. They have 5 or 6 different grades. Thats also where I get my salt for the brine. I believe its the same peppers used to make gochugang (bad spelling) aka fermented chili paste which is shelf stable but I've never made it.
 
Kimchi however is something I have experience with. I've never had a batch go bad and I usually ferment it for 45 days at room temp (nearly 80 degrees in TX during summer with the AC on). Since I am the only one that eats the really spicy ones, I've eaten right out of the jar and then put back in the fridge and never had any spoilage.
 
That said, I would never leave kimchi at room temp after the ferment, once the jar has been opened.
 
I wonder if a longer ferment will result in greater bacterial die off and negate the need to pasteurize?
 
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I would say absolutely no way. I love the idea, but fermented products, especially lacto, create way too much gas.

If you could invent a burp top maybe. Keep in mind your "Holy Grail" is also everyone else's including commercial producers. I think you might be SOL homey.

BTW, I'm not an expert, maybe a senior member can chime in with better advice?
 
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not an expert by any means......but....
 
just looking at what products are available made by many other companies with people much smarter than me....
 
it looks like all products with active ingredients (be it yogurt, kraut, kimchee) all are refrigerated fresh products which allow the Goodies to live. 
 
 
There are hot packed products like canned sauerkraut that do contain some of the vitamins and flavors of the refrigerated kraut, but all the active/probiotic/beneficial ingredients are killed with a heat packing process.  Or it could be packed with something to lower acidity like vinegar to make it shelf stable....which would also kill the Goodies.  (Good bacteria as opposed to Nasties- aka- bad bacteria).,
 
 
It would be a Holy Grail!  A self-burping lid that would allow still-fermenting products to be stocked on store shelves. 
 
 
 
But I have to add.......the store would probalby have to isolate said self-burping lids due to the smell that many customers would find offensive.....:lol:
 
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I agree with both of you and well, "I think you might be SOL homey."  that gave me a laugh John. So what we are looking at would be a solid state airlock, similar to what you see on PCV systems in some of the 2.0 liter VW's. We might be able to preserve freshness, but like salsalady said, the store would have to isolate the self burping products, and I'd imagine they have better ventilation than my pantry.
 
Its good to dream though right? One might prolong shelf life with sulfites and other preservatives but that would defeat the purpose of a raw, live food.
 
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salsalady said:
not an expert by any means......but....
 
just looking at what products are available made by many other companies with people much smarter than me....
 
it looks like all products with active ingredients (be it yogurt, kraut, kimchee) all are refrigerated fresh products which allow the Goodies to live. 
 
 
There are hot packed products like canned sauerkraut that do contain some of the vitamins and flavors of the refrigerated kraut, but all the active/probiotic/beneficial ingredients are killed with a heat packing process.  Or it could be packed with something to lower acidity like vinegar to make it shelf stable....which would also kill the Goodies.  (Good bacteria as opposed to Nasties- aka- bad bacteria).,
 
 
It would be a Holy Grail!  A self-burping lid that would allow still-fermenting products to be stocked on store shelves. 
 
 
 
But I have to add.......the store would probalby have to isolate said self-burping lids due to the smell that many customers would find offensive..... :lol:
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After blending a fermented sauce would it keep in the fridge with an airlock/ mason jar combo and be ok ?
 
Also how long would you expect the sauce to be good for ?
 
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JohnsMyName said:
You are the expert Madam Salsa ;)
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thank you but ...Oh NO!  Not on this stuff!!!  I've done some fermenting, a few sauces and kimchee, but there are many others with much more knowledge than me-self. 
 
 
SavinaRed said:
After blending a fermented sauce would it keep in the fridge with an airlock/ mason jar combo and be ok ?
 
Also how long would you expect the sauce to be good for ?
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Again... not the expert by any yardstick.......
 
It seems a fermented product can be kept indefinitley in it's proper environment/climate.  Fermented vegetable crocks are kept underground for months, so a blendered fermented sauce should be good in a fridge for months/years.  If the sauce was an active ferment when it was blendered up, it will still have some fermentation activity even in the fridge but at a very slow rate.  If the sauce isn't cooked to stop the fermentation activity, then being aware of the fermentation and keeping airlocks or burping is important.
 
just my 2 centavos~
 
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salsalady said:
 
thank you but ...Oh NO!  Not on this stuff!!!  I've done some fermenting, a few sauces and kimchee, but there are many others with much more knowledge than me-self. 
 
 
 
Again... not the expert by any yardstick.......
 
It seems a fermented product can be kept indefinitley in it's proper environment/climate.  Fermented vegetable crocks are kept underground for months, so a blendered fermented sauce should be good in a fridge for months/years.  If the sauce was an active ferment when it was blendered up, it will still have some fermentation activity even in the fridge but at a very slow rate.  If the sauce isn't cooked to stop the fermentation activity, then being aware of the fermentation and keeping airlocks or burping is important.
 
just my 2 centavos~
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ok that sounds great I'm going to give this a try with my Caribbean Red ferment I have going now for 6 months. I want to take advantage of all that good bacteria  :)
 
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I think it's possible. The fermentation would have to run completely though, to insure that there is no more off gassing. By that time (idk, maybe a year or more?) all active fermentation is done, the product is sufficiently acidic so as to be shelf stable pretty much indefinitely and technically should not overflow or need to burp. Of course the USDA would probably have issues with you trying to sell it to anyone but for personal use you'd be fine.
 
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SmokenFire said:
I think it's possible. The fermentation would have to run completely though, to insure that there is no more off gassing. By that time (idk, maybe a year or more?) all active fermentation is done, the product is sufficiently acidic so as to be shelf stable pretty much indefinitely and technically should not overflow or need to burp. Of course the USDA would probably have issues with you trying to sell it to anyone but for personal use you'd be fine.
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do you ever make a fermented mash that contains any fresh fruit or just the veggies- peppers,onion,garlic carrots ?
 
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So, after a bit of research Smoke hit the nail right on the head. There's a lot of scientific references available online and you can go out and read through all that information about homofermentative versus hetrofermentative LAB and all but essentially when the food runs out the LAB all will either die or go dormant and flocculate and drop out of solution. Just like the yeast does in beer and wine production.
 
So, yes it's possible but it's not likely to still have the beneficial bacteria in it. How do we maintain the good bacteria in there, we refrigerate it so that the LAB slow down their consumption of the sugars and stay in solution for us to consume.
 
Hope this helps, Cheers!
 
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RocketMan said:
So, after a bit of research Smoke hit the nail right on the head. There's a lot of scientific references available online and you can go out and read through all that information about homofermentative versus hetrofermentative LAB and all but essentially when the food runs out the LAB all will either die or go dormant and flocculate and drop out of solution. Just like the yeast does in beer and wine production.
 
So, yes it's possible but it's not likely to still have the beneficial bacteria in it. How do we maintain the good bacteria in there, we refrigerate it so that the LAB slow down their consumption of the sugars and stay in solution for us to consume.
 
Hope this helps, Cheers!
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do you recommend putting fresh fruit in your ferment or just stick with the veggies and after fermentation add the fruit ?
 
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SavinaRed said:
do you recommend putting fresh fruit in your ferment or just stick with the veggies and after fermentation add the fruit ?
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It depends on your flavor profile and whether it calls for the sweetness of the fruit or just the flavor. If you don't need the sweetness the ferment it and if you do want the sweetness the put it in after. I have sauce that I do this with and one that i do both with.
 
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SavinaRed said:
do you ever make a fermented mash that contains any fresh fruit or just the veggies- peppers,onion,garlic carrots ?
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Rarely do I add any fruit during fermentation, but I almost always add a bit of juice or fresh fruit to most of my sauces during cooking prior to final bottling.  I usually ferment peppers w veggies or just ferment the peppers alone and then combine to achieve the flavor profiles I'm after.  
 
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SmokenFire said:
 
Rarely do I add any fruit during fermentation, but I almost always add a bit of juice or fresh fruit to most of my sauces during cooking prior to final bottling.  I usually ferment peppers w veggies or just ferment the peppers alone and then combine to achieve the flavor profiles I'm after.  
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I ask this question for a fermented sauce and not cooking it after fermentation period. I'm interested in trying a sauce with all the good/healthy bacteria.
 
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