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Calcium nitrate versus Calcium phosphate...Liquid Bone Meal?
- Thread starter Roguejim
- Start date
Roguejim said:
My biochem professor would always talk about folks who "know just enough biochemistry to be dangerous". From what I've read, this guy fits that persona to a tee. He uses just enough fancy words to convince customers that he knows what he's talking about. But his knowledge of chemistry and plant physiology is only strong enough to get marks to the cash register.
I'm sure he's very successful at what he does. And I'll bet the folks whose crops are valuable enough to warrant spending that kind of money on his fertilizers are probably happy with the results. Maybe what he sells is better than a cheaper alternative. I don't know, but I certainly don't believe I would find out by talking to him. The spiel I refuted above tells me that he's not used to talking to people who understand chemistry or plant physiology.
[SIZE=12pt]beffore let me adress the following. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]what is a salt? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]a salt is simply an ironically bonded cat and anion... basically a pair of ions sharing charges such that they achieve a more stable state closer to neutral. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]you can think of a salt as basically a pair of atoms attracted and held together by electromagnetic forces. THEY DO NOT SHARE ELECTRONS. they just get stuck together like two magnets separated by a piece of cardboard. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]water is held together by covalent bonds. covalent bonds DO SHARE ELECTRONS. electrons literallly zip around being shared from atom to atom. some atoms attract the electron more stongly than others... for example the oxygen in water sucks away the negative charge onto itself, leaving the protons more bare... exposing a positive charge. this is why some atoms are polar and some are not. think of a covalent bond as two magnets stuck directly onto each other... not seprated by cardboard, then loosing all charge other than that which is holding them together. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]covalent bonds are very very high energy bonds. if you break them you tend to need lots of energy. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]ionic bonds are easy to brake and are not really bonds at all. They tend to be longer than covalent bonds also [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"Delivery system and reactivity. Calcium phosphate, in our form, is a rock derived from natural bone. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The calcium in calcium phosphate is reactive and wants to bond to and tie up salts and acts as a carrying agent of the other trace nutrients into the plant, but enters in as a rock molecule.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]calcium phosphate is a salt. there are many salts of phosphate and calcium. phosphate is tetrahedral just like carbon, it needs 2 electrons to stabilize its charge and loose its reactivity. because it wants two electrons it can polymerize just like carbon can and you get poly phosphates, and salts of poly phosphates. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]polymers can form cyclic structures very easy, and so can phosphate polymers. phosphate also has huge electron hungry oxygen atoms shooting out into space... when you get a cyclic poly phosphate molecule floating around, it can actually sequester free ions of divalent metals like calcium and iron and manganeze etc. you dont have to have a complete ring to sequester though, you might not be able to make a full ring, and you might get a C shape that sort of wraps itself around a metal ion... in this case you have a sequestering and possibly chelation effect. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]how is sequestering and chelating different? IDK exactly, from what i recall chelation does not 100% isolate the ion from reacting, it simply wraps around it and aids in its solubility. most chelating agents are organically derived, where as sequestrating agents can be both. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]first, its my opinion that he is confusing sequestration and chelation. He is assuming that because polyphosphate can sequester, its also a chelation agent. again this is not necessarily wrong, but it is really just wrong. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Second, only huge poly phosphate molecules can sequester metals. poly phosphate is produced in facilities by the metric tonn. it is not present in mined calcium phosphate. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]furthermore, the sequestering agents used in water well injection are actually mixtures of many chemicals, one of which happens to be poly phosphate. poly phosphate itself is a mixture of phosphate polymers, not just a single one. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]No, plants cannot use elemental nitrogen. Elemental nitrogen is ENTIRELY unreactive… not as unreactive as noble gasses, but its pretty fucking unreactive. Just think about it. A plant is a giant chemistry set… food necessarily has to be reactive otherwise it cannot be reacted with other chemicals to release energy and perform work. Cars cannot run on nitrogen gas just as plants cannot run on nitrogen. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Plants uptake nitrate. NO3-. It’s a charged ion, and its reactive. Its bacically nitrous oxide with another oxygen jammed onto the nitrogen making it more reactive. Nitrate is actually dehydrated nitric acid now that I think on it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]IBecause the calcium in calcium nitrate is bonded to a nitrate, the plant can only accept that form in at a lower ph and ultimately adds water weight which will evaporate off during the drying stage after harvest.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is all nonsense. Calcium is not bonded to nitrate. Its ionically bonded to nitrate, but like I said, an ionic bond isn’t really a bond. Its more of a intermolecular attraction. The bond is so weak that you can break it apart by simply adding polar solvent to a salt. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]ALL PLANTS UPTAKE NITRATE… its not something artificial here. In nature the majority of available nitrogen is taken up as nitrate. A smaller part is taken up as ammonium, NH4+. The preference for ammonium increases when ph raises… from what I recall. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Nitrate adding water weight to plants is absurd. Excesses of nitrogen can lead to excessively vegative growth, but this has nothing to do with the nitrate. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]PHOSPHATE aids(is required for) plant sugar production, not calcium. Phosphate is involved in all sorts of ridiculously complex biochemistry. Phosphate is like… 1/6th the molecular weight of DNA or some shit like that. Its used to create ATP from what I recall[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]In that it does not provide phosphate. But try growing a plant without nitrate. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]what is a salt? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]a salt is simply an ironically bonded cat and anion... basically a pair of ions sharing charges such that they achieve a more stable state closer to neutral. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]you can think of a salt as basically a pair of atoms attracted and held together by electromagnetic forces. THEY DO NOT SHARE ELECTRONS. they just get stuck together like two magnets separated by a piece of cardboard. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]water is held together by covalent bonds. covalent bonds DO SHARE ELECTRONS. electrons literallly zip around being shared from atom to atom. some atoms attract the electron more stongly than others... for example the oxygen in water sucks away the negative charge onto itself, leaving the protons more bare... exposing a positive charge. this is why some atoms are polar and some are not. think of a covalent bond as two magnets stuck directly onto each other... not seprated by cardboard, then loosing all charge other than that which is holding them together. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]covalent bonds are very very high energy bonds. if you break them you tend to need lots of energy. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]ionic bonds are easy to brake and are not really bonds at all. They tend to be longer than covalent bonds also [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"Delivery system and reactivity. Calcium phosphate, in our form, is a rock derived from natural bone. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The calcium in calcium phosphate is reactive and wants to bond to and tie up salts and acts as a carrying agent of the other trace nutrients into the plant, but enters in as a rock molecule.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]calcium phosphate is a salt. there are many salts of phosphate and calcium. phosphate is tetrahedral just like carbon, it needs 2 electrons to stabilize its charge and loose its reactivity. because it wants two electrons it can polymerize just like carbon can and you get poly phosphates, and salts of poly phosphates. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]polymers can form cyclic structures very easy, and so can phosphate polymers. phosphate also has huge electron hungry oxygen atoms shooting out into space... when you get a cyclic poly phosphate molecule floating around, it can actually sequester free ions of divalent metals like calcium and iron and manganeze etc. you dont have to have a complete ring to sequester though, you might not be able to make a full ring, and you might get a C shape that sort of wraps itself around a metal ion... in this case you have a sequestering and possibly chelation effect. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]how is sequestering and chelating different? IDK exactly, from what i recall chelation does not 100% isolate the ion from reacting, it simply wraps around it and aids in its solubility. most chelating agents are organically derived, where as sequestrating agents can be both. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]first, its my opinion that he is confusing sequestration and chelation. He is assuming that because polyphosphate can sequester, its also a chelation agent. again this is not necessarily wrong, but it is really just wrong. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Second, only huge poly phosphate molecules can sequester metals. poly phosphate is produced in facilities by the metric tonn. it is not present in mined calcium phosphate. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]furthermore, the sequestering agents used in water well injection are actually mixtures of many chemicals, one of which happens to be poly phosphate. poly phosphate itself is a mixture of phosphate polymers, not just a single one. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]No, plants cannot use elemental nitrogen. Elemental nitrogen is ENTIRELY unreactive… not as unreactive as noble gasses, but its pretty fucking unreactive. Just think about it. A plant is a giant chemistry set… food necessarily has to be reactive otherwise it cannot be reacted with other chemicals to release energy and perform work. Cars cannot run on nitrogen gas just as plants cannot run on nitrogen. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Plants uptake nitrate. NO3-. It’s a charged ion, and its reactive. Its bacically nitrous oxide with another oxygen jammed onto the nitrogen making it more reactive. Nitrate is actually dehydrated nitric acid now that I think on it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]IBecause the calcium in calcium nitrate is bonded to a nitrate, the plant can only accept that form in at a lower ph and ultimately adds water weight which will evaporate off during the drying stage after harvest.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is all nonsense. Calcium is not bonded to nitrate. Its ionically bonded to nitrate, but like I said, an ionic bond isn’t really a bond. Its more of a intermolecular attraction. The bond is so weak that you can break it apart by simply adding polar solvent to a salt. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]ALL PLANTS UPTAKE NITRATE… its not something artificial here. In nature the majority of available nitrogen is taken up as nitrate. A smaller part is taken up as ammonium, NH4+. The preference for ammonium increases when ph raises… from what I recall. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Nitrate adding water weight to plants is absurd. Excesses of nitrogen can lead to excessively vegative growth, but this has nothing to do with the nitrate. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]PHOSPHATE aids(is required for) plant sugar production, not calcium. Phosphate is involved in all sorts of ridiculously complex biochemistry. Phosphate is like… 1/6th the molecular weight of DNA or some shit like that. Its used to create ATP from what I recall[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]In that it does not provide phosphate. But try growing a plant without nitrate. [/SIZE]
ColdSmoke said:
Point was you went around saying nothing had been addressed. I gave you points of contention.
Now you just ignore those to throw the ad hominems "prick" and "douche" at me.
To which I reply: "Vaginas like you are usually well aquainted with feminine hygiene products. Troll."
Derp.
Yo, don't get my topic closed by the moderators. It's starting to get good. I had a topic closed several months ago involving a certain pesticide used as a systemic. A pissing match started, and the topic was closed by moderators.
I'm still waiting for Ostrander to reply. If he does, I'd like permission to copy/paste some of the detailed responses above.
I'm still waiting for Ostrander to reply. If he does, I'd like permission to copy/paste some of the detailed responses above.
queequeg152 said:
Regardless of how he may be suggesting that Phosphates in his fertilizer might chelate trace elements, how does that explain his claim that "Calcium... (phosphate, maybe?)...acts as a carrying agent of the other trace nutrients into the plant"?
Is it possible for a plant's roots to absorb such large molecules through their roots?
[SIZE=12.056326866149902px] Also, hypothetically, if a trace mineral ion is chelated by a phosphate polymer, wouldn't its charge be effectively neutralized? Would it be insoluble in water? Would it just precipitate out in a hydroponic system? Also, wouldn't a such a large fragile molecule be torn apart pretty quickly in the chemical terrordome that is a soil [/SIZE][SIZE=12.056326866149902px]microbiome?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12.056326866149902px] I just don't see trace element coordination by phosphate having any appreciable effect on it's availability to a plant's roots.[/SIZE]
that topic wasnt even closed. i was closed and deleted.
you can thank nigel for that one.
chelation can get crap into a plant that it wouldn't otherwise not be able to uptake yes. IDK if this is a function of size or what.
chelation of metals is just a way to keep the metals in solution however. without the EDTA or what ever is used, it would literally rust out of solution or precipitate out of solution.
this guy read somewhere about polyphosphate sequestration of metals... thought sequestration = chelation and then posited that polyphosphate = calcium phosphate.
thats my opinion. there is no other explaination other than outright lieing that would explain that irrational assertion.
you can thank nigel for that one.
Hybrid Mode 01 said:
chelation can get crap into a plant that it wouldn't otherwise not be able to uptake yes. IDK if this is a function of size or what.
chelation of metals is just a way to keep the metals in solution however. without the EDTA or what ever is used, it would literally rust out of solution or precipitate out of solution.
this guy read somewhere about polyphosphate sequestration of metals... thought sequestration = chelation and then posited that polyphosphate = calcium phosphate.
thats my opinion. there is no other explaination other than outright lieing that would explain that irrational assertion.
wayright said:Will some of you really smart people please join the growdown
Kevin
Already there!
edit: Oh, shit. You said smart...