Calcium nitrate versus Calcium phosphate...Liquid Bone Meal?

Heckle said:
 
Have you eliminated the variables that we would all experience in attempting such a thing?
Click to expand...
 
     When you take your kids to the fair to play Skee-Ball, do you make them draw a vector diagram?
 
 
 
edit: Also, are you a lawyer?
 
 
 
 
 
 
edit again: Not that there's anything wrong with that...
 
Jim, get some kelp meal preferably Acadian kelp. Brown kelp is one of the world's richest sources of Calcium (Ca++) and it's in a form that is readily available to plant roots. Not to mention every micronutrient known to man. ;)
 
Proud Marine Dad said:
Jim, get some kelp meal preferably Acadian kelp. Brown kelp is one of the world's richest sources of Calcium (Ca++) and it's in a form that is readily available to plant roots. Not to mention every micronutrient known to man. ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'd like to amend my raised beds with something so I don't have to resort to cal-mag.
 
Any opinions on liquid bone meal?  Is it more readily available to the plant than dry bone meal that you would buy in a box or bag, and amend your soil with?
 
Not to obsess over Nectar For The Gods nutes, but I used their liquid bone meal on my young plants, and many of them had very beefy stalks and stems.  I'm not giving credit to the bone meal, yet, just asking what it's effect would be.
 
Any truth/science to the claims made for this liquid bone meal product, Herculean Harvest?
"
About:
Hercules was known for his strength and power: a perfect name for a product that gives your plants just that. Herculean Harvest increases the availability of calcium and phosphorus to your plants and soil, producing a wide range of benefits to plant health, structure and flavor, contributing to a vigorous soil food web and improving accessibility of nutrients. The active ingredient in bone meal, calcium phosphate, helps to carry all nutrients to the plant, except for nitrogen and potassium. Calcium is essential for supplying plant growth energy in order to sustain life and growth, and promotes solid stems through stronger cell development. Calcium also increases the cation exchange capacity of soils, making nutrients more available to microbial activity and ultimately to the plant. The addition of Herculean Harvest to any nutrient line will increase size, aroma and flavor of the plants fruit. It also aides in washing salt from a potting soil or soilless medium, and can be used as part of a soil flush solution.
 
Tip:
When growing fruit producing plants we have all been told to spend ten to fourteen days at the end of the plants life cycle flushing out any nutrient flavor that has occurred during the life of the plant. However, we find that this information is misleading. Once a plant is built and designed with a salt based fertilizer and all the cells in the stems,leaves and fruit have been built it is not an easy task to remove that flavor from a plant. Our customers have run many trials and have found that by feeding a calcium based regimen all the way through, with the last five to seven days feeding Herculean Harvest, Aphrodites Extraction, and Olympus Up as a sweetener not only did the quality of fruit improve, but they also saw a yield increase. Plants need that last stage in their lives (fall) to translocate all the sugars that they worked so hard to make through photosynthesis during their life span and relocate them into the fruit. Calcium from Herculean Harvest, Aphrodites Extraction and Olympus Up aid in this process while adding extra flavor."
:
 
queequeg152 said:
salt buildup inside plants is nonsense.
 
flushing anything for flavor is nonsense.
 
this is a marketing company. noting more.
Click to expand...
Well said! That is "stoner science" perpetuated by idiots like Jorge in the canna world, not real science.
 
Proud Marine Dad said:
Jim, get some kelp meal preferably Acadian kelp. Brown kelp is one of the world's richest sources of Calcium (Ca++) and it's in a form that is readily available to plant roots. Not to mention every micronutrient known to man. ;)
Click to expand...
In terms of just calcium, is it preferable to bone meal?
 
 dont forget about calcium carbonate... calcite, and if your soil is basic, gypsum.
 
apparently you can also get organic calcium chelates too. IDK how they qualify as organic, but what ever. probably cost a shit load though.
 
queequeg152 said:
flushing anything for flavor is nonsense.
 
this is a marketing company. noting more.
Click to expand...
 
 
Proud Marine Dad said:
Well said! That is "stoner science" perpetuated by idiots like Jorge in the canna world, not real science.
Click to expand...
 
If deprived of nitrogen a plant will cannibalize it's lower leaves to get it.
 
If a person stops eating it's body will cannibalize itself, beginning with any junk.
 
Real science is observation.
 
if a person stops eating, do you think his flesh tasts better? do you think "salts" and toxins and other bullshit magically leaves the body?
 
do you think tobacco is starved prior to its harvest and curing? do you think tobacco magically cures a dark shade of unpallatable green?
 
if a person stops eating, he will also loose muscle tissue, not just fat. its also extremely taxing on the body, and not in anyway an exercise of good health to starve ones self for extended periods.
 
queequeg152 said:
if a person stops eating, do you think his flesh tasts better?  periods.
Click to expand...
 
I dont know. It's possible.
 
do you think "salts" and toxins and other bullshit magically leaves the body?
 
Click to expand...
 
I didnt even quote that part.
 
do you think tobacco is starved prior to its harvest and curing? do you think tobacco magically cures a dark shade of unpallatable green?
 
Click to expand...
 
Most of the tobacco I have seen is dried to a brown color.
 
its also extremely taxing on the body, and not in anyway an exercise of good health to starve ones self for extended
Click to expand...
 
I read that being slightly ketogenic is a quite natural and extremely healthy state.
 
Two diff scientific studies that I can remember have shown in animals extremely extended life spans are correlated with less food.
 
edit to add: it also flips on a slew of genes that do healthy things for the body. I would say that based on the observed evidence that it actually is healthy.
 
 
if a person stops eating, he will also loose muscle tissue, not just fat.
 
Click to expand...
 
Depends how long they stop eating doesnt it?
 
Heckle said:
 
 
 
If deprived of nitrogen a plant will cannibalize it's lower leaves to get it.
 
If a person stops eating it's body will cannibalize itself, beginning with any junk.
 
Real science is observation.
Click to expand...
I am talking about flushing a plant before harvest to flush out the salts, etc. It's bullshit plain and simple and perpetuated by those who are clueless about soil biology.
That was my point.
Let me quote someone far more knowledgeable on the subject of "flushing". 
 
Chlorophyll b is the 'type' found in plants as we're defining it. Other structures are found in algae, cyanobacteria, et al.
 
Here is the molecular formula - C55H70O6N4Mg so we're looking at 55 Carbon ions, 70 Hydrogen ions, 6 Oxygen ions, 4 Nitrogen ions and 1 Magnesium ion. All 6 forms of chlorophyll have one consistent dynamic, i.e. a single Magnesium ion. Not two, not three - one. So much for the mythology about magnesium-hungry plants or worse in the wacky weed world where specific 'strains' can be magnesium-hungry. Looking at just chlorophyll b a better myth would be carbon-hungry or hydrogen-hungry and maybe even oxygen-hungry and nothing to do with magnesium.

My understanding of this worst example of stoner science is that by dumping copious amounts of water somehow water with it's simple H2O formula is able to reach up from the root zone then into a plant's vascular system and deconstruct a fairly complex molecule - that must be some really unique water indeed!

In a dynamic called translocation plants can and do move materials from leaves to other tissues - that is established botany. Plants produce carbohydrates (sugars) in the leaves by photosynthesis but non-photysynthetic parts of the plant also require carbohydrates and other organic and nonorganic materials. It's for this reason that nutrients are translocated from sources (regions of excess carbohydrates, primarily matures leaves) to what are called sinks. 

​Some important sinks are roots, flowers, fruits, stems and developing leaves. Leaves are particularly interesting in the translocation process because they are sinks when they are young and become sources later when they are about half-grown.

Carbohydrates are simply Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen molecules, i.e. simple sugars.

So let's say for sake of silliness that flushing can trigger translocation which must be a real threat for rice plants, where are the chlorophyll molecules going? They can't be destroyed because they're elements which cannot be destroyed or changed unless of course we're talking about cannabis which has special properties that negate almost every law of botany, biology, chemistry, physics imaginable.

My simple question is this: once this special water deconstructs the chlorophyll compound where do the ions go? Into thin air? That would be difficult since Magnesium is a metallic element but again we have to suspend even common sense to shore-up the flushing argument so who knows? Perhaps a special air canopy is created from flushing which can move magnesium around at will. Even if water could deconstruct and force translocation of elements doesn't that defeat the purpose in the first place which is claimed that flushing will remove the nasties causing us to not have dank! If the mature leaves are the repository the why would you want to move these ions to the buds which you plan on consuming?

It's difficult to write this stuff without falling out of my chair with laughter. The argument fails on every level - even common sense.
Click to expand...
Roguejim said:
In terms of just calcium, is it preferable to bone meal?
Click to expand...
Absolutely! I think bonemeal is worthless personally and so do all the organic canna growers I talk to.
I used kelp, and crab meal in  my plants last year and they looked great. Oyster shell flour is another great addition and I wanted to use it last season but they were out at the garden supply store so I used crab meal alone as my calcium source not to mention it's chitin content which is great to have in the soil. 
 
Heckle said:
 
I dont know. It's possible.
 
 
I didnt even quote that part.
 
 
Most of the tobacco I have seen is dried to a brown color.
 
 
I read that being slightly ketogenic is a quite natural and extremely healthy state.
 
Two diff scientific studies that I can remember have shown in animals extremely extended life spans are correlated with less food.
 
edit to add: it also flips on a slew of genes that do healthy things for the body. I would say that based on the observed evidence that it actually is healthy.
 
 
Depends how long they stop eating doesnt it?
Click to expand...
 
tobacco is cured to that color its harvested ideally at an off yellow green color. some varieties are cured from a dark green, but must Virginia tobacco ideally takes on a light yellow hue prior to harvest time.
its hung in a barn post harvest and allowed to cure to a nice brown over around 3 weeks max or so.
its the same for cannabis as far as i can tell. you dont just rip all of the moisture out of the plant as fast as you can... you let it cure, the cure is what gives the plant, and tobacco the acceptable taste.
when you cure tobacco badly, or just dehydrate it, it holds onto its yellow color and makes a grassy shit smoke that is exceptionally high in nicotine and just unpleasant in all respects.
 
starving a plant such that its already yellowing may help it cure faster... idk honestly, but id submit that you are loosing some quantity of growth doing this.
 
the good belifits you are citing are related to caloric restriction diets... and it works in rats, and is thought that it should work in humans as well, but its a miserable existence. we are talking 1500 calories here. i recall a discussion about this on a podcast you may or may not be able to dig out. podcast is called the skeptics guide to the universe. 
 
the health effects related to short term 'fasting' is not terribly clear either based on what i recall from the above podcast, but i doubt its s terribly bad for you provided you dont loose your mind and eat shit loads of garbage post fast. 
 
not that its even related to the discussion about plants... but starving is terrible for your brain, organs and all of other shit i cant remember. starving as a child is even worse. there have been all sorts of studies about populations subjected to periodic starvation and they mostly turn up unfortunate early mortality when compared to similar people. im going off memory here... from some documentary regarding american POW's, but it does something adverse to the heart resulting in higher blood pressure among other things.
 
 
from what i recall, once your body enters the starvation response or what ever its called. its exceptionally difficult to hold onto muscle tissue unless you are some freak of nature or exercising like a mad man. light fasting or just eating less than you burn  also makes holding onto muscle tissue harder. i dont know why.
 
i vaguely heard someone suggest that your body looses muscle so willingly because muscle tissue creates alot of metabolic waste that is taxing to remove and maintain. when you are not using the muscle the body is happy to loose it so that it can work less.  probably bullshit explaination though. i dont know shit about biology, human biology even more so.
 
flushing a plant for taste makes no sense what so ever... yes i agree plants dont need as much nitrogen or nutrients in general when they are ending their life cycle prepairing for winter and such, but striping the soil of all nutrients and possibly creating a hypo tonic condition at the roots is absurd.
 
i understand folks with plants predisposed to making purple cannabis like to starve and chill them in order to create strong purple colors in the petiols and shit, but other than that i dont think there is any valid reason, other than stoner lore to do this shit. there is 0 equivelant in commercial agriculture.
 
doubt it. the Greeks posited that the earth was round. no clue if it was a common belief, but idea that a flat earth was believed up until the 14-1500's is bullshit. its just that nobody that we know of was circumnavigating the earth back then and writing about it.
 
regarding heliocentrism, your suggestion is interesting considering its generally considered to be one of the great epoch of science winning over bullshit dogma.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top