CaneDog 2019 Hirsute Pursuit – Rocotos, Wilds & Moar

So, here's the new glog for the coming season.  With the indoor grow culled pretty hard now I can focus more on getting ready for what's ahead.  Hoping for a great year, but I’m already a bit behind - the germinators are packed right now and I've still got a round of annuum seeds waiting for their turn.  I guess it wouldn’t feel much like pepper growing though if everything were going perfect.
 
My focus was going to be rocotos with a side of bonnets and some other stuff, but I found I kept planting more and more wilds. Eventually I just kinda went all-in with them and they took on co-main event status. 
 
I’ll start things off with some pics of some of the earlier pube’s.  There’s not too many at this point. Unfortunately, the vast majority just went into germination.
 
First off, Costa Rica Red.  This is the CRR with flattened triangular pods.  I also have an OW CRR that’s a 3-4 lobed “boxy” variety.  I didn't get true seeds off this one last summer, so I have a few of these growing and crossing my fingers they grow true.

 
Rocoto DeSeda.  These guys were from a bush I’d OW’d a few years in a row, but it didn’t make it through this winter

 
 
Rocoto San Camillo

 
 
Gelbe Reisen Variant.  These are from true seeds off a plant I’ve been growing for a few years that was supposed to be Gelbe Riesen, but the pods are more orange vs yellow, rounder/less boxy, and just a touch smaller. I don’t know if it’s a natural variation or it might have crossed with a Costa Rica Orange, but it's a great plant. I have a few of these started and am curious what comes of them.

 
 
Giant Yellow Rocoto.  Suppose I should pinch that bud off.

 
 
Recently hatched Gelbe Riesen sprouts (the parent plant has been a beast for me for a while now) and CAP 217 Hyper-Pube.

 
That’s it for the rocotos for now.  Will try to post up some pics of the early wilds in a little bit. 
 
CD

 

[CaneDog]

My GWs are setting pods, so I hope to have
some seeds for you, CD. These are from my
2014 plant.

 
Very cool Paul - on all counts!  

 

[CraftyFox]

I've been having bad results with the little organza bags..
 
 
 

I've also been having this issue.. Went from like 90% take to 90% drop. I've also been having pod drop on about 30% of the ones that I isolate and mark. I thought it was the sparrows grabbing the tags, but I'm not so sure now. Also, especially with the Chinense lantern-types, do you have trouble using the bonchi bags because of flowering order? Seems like they are always flowering in different places, once the first few set.. Whereas the Bacca/Annu/Frutescens all seem to fire regularly from the tip. 

Thanks for that link to the Plant Identification.. If you only knew how many planes of google hell I've been thru looking for that.
 

My GWs are setting pods, so I hope to have
some seeds for you, CD. These are from my
2014 plant.

If you still have some of those left after that is said and done, and see anything I have of interest, I'd like to get my hands on a few GW seeds as well.. Since everyone who has them seems to like them. 

 

[CaneDog]

I've also been having this issue.. Went from like 90% take to 90% drop. I've also been having pod drop on about 30% of the ones that I isolate and mark. I thought it was the sparrows grabbing the tags, but I'm not so sure now. Also, especially with the Chinense lantern-types, do you have trouble using the bonchi bags because of flowering order? Seems like they are always flowering in different places, once the first few set.. Whereas the Bacca/Annu/Frutescens all seem to fire regularly from the tip. 

Thanks for that link to the Plant Identification.. If you only knew how many planes of google hell I've been thru looking for that.

 
Hey Crafty.  Well, you might want these common ones in addition to the USDA - EDIT: added USDA too for convenient reference.
 
CGN (Wageningen) - https://cgngenis.wur.nl/ZoekGewas.aspx?ID=j34jwhev&Cropnumber=38
 
CAP (IPK Gatersleben) - https://gbis.ipk-gatersleben.de/gbis2i/faces/index.jsf
 
PI (USDA) - https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/search.aspx
 
Isolation with the little o-bags is definitely a pain and is easier to do on tips that in the middle of foliage. I look for the best locations, try to puff up the bag for better air circulation, and even pinch a bigger leaf in the way sometimes rather than stuffing it into the bag.  Then I just keep repeating until i get success. 
 
I think air circulation is the main issue (just my guess) and performance seems to be better or worse depending on the weather. I've consistently had better results bagging whole branches or plants or, best of all, simply physically isolating, but each brings with it other drawbacks or limitations.
 
Also, I rarely tag the actual pedicel in case of snagging.  I usually tag a nearby petiole or branch.
 
Hope you're getting some good ones though.  Just true seeds or are you doing any crosses?

 

[Wiriwiri]

Enjoyed looking at the progress esp., the wilds CD...so nice to see how they have grown.

 

[PaulG]

If you still have some of those left after that is said and done, and see anything I have of interest, I'd like to get my hands on a few GW seeds as well.. Since everyone who has them seems to like them. 

Sure thing, Crafty. Just keep an eye on my grow
log this Fall to see when they might be available.
 

 
Isolation with the little o-bags is definitely a pain and is easier to do on tips that in the middle of foliage. I look for the best locations, try to puff up the bag for better air circulation, and even pinch a bigger leaf in the way sometimes rather than stuffing it into the bag.  Then I just keep repeating until i get success. 
In my limited experience this year this works best on large
flower varieties like Marconi or aji amarillo. Easier to find a
bud sort of hanging out in space by itself.
 
I think air circulation is the main issue (just my guess) and performance seems to be better or worse depending on the weather. I've consistently had better results bagging whole branches.
I like bagging whole sections, as well. the 5 gal. paint strainer
bags and the Mesh Veggie Bags make that pretty easy. I trim
off the bigger leaves so there is lots of air space in the bags.
 

 

[Devv]

Well done CD! I know quite a bit of work went into your grow this year, I hope it produces to your satisfaction.
 
As always the pics are great!

 

[Devv]

Well done CD! I know quite a bit of work went into your grow this year, I hope it produces to your satisfaction.
 
As always the pics are great!

 

[CraftyFox]

 
 
Hope you're getting some good ones though.  Just true seeds or are you doing any crosses?

 
Mostly varieties I bought or received.. I've got a couple of Jukka's crosses I'm saving pure seed from, but nothing much yet of my own. 
Duke Baccatum x PI260567
Clavo Red x Carolina Reaper, which I noticed he took off the site now.. Also one I'm resorting to alternative methods of isolation.

I also have a few wild hybrids going too, which I'm saving seed from, including my Super Hot Mystery, which is looking rather habish now that the first one is coloring. 
I should start updating my trade list soon.

Sure thing, Crafty. Just keep an eye on my grow
log this Fall to see when they might be available.
 

Will do! Thanks!!

 

[DWB]

This is what I've been doing this year. It's working out fairly well.
 

 
I've been wanting to ask you something about this particular Scorpion plant anyway. It was born in November 2016. I saved seeds because it makes beautiful and extremely delicious peppers but I've never grown any other copies. I just keep this one going year after year. It's one of my favorites but I thought it may be good to save a fresh bunch of seeds. That's why I bagged the entire plant this year.
 
So riddle me this Señor CaneDog. This plant has always produced yellow pods. This was a 2017 pod.
 

 
This year, every pod looks like this. How can this possibly happen? It's never made a red pod in it's lifetime and now it won't make a yellow pod. I know it's not a plant mix up because I only have one of these plants. It's a pet and gets a prime spot in the OW shelter every year.
 

 

[CaneDog]

This is what I've been doing this year. It's working out fairly well.
 
I've been wanting to ask you something about this particular Scorpion plant anyway. It was born in November 2016. I saved seeds because it makes beautiful and extremely delicious peppers but I've never grown any other copies. I just keep this one going year after year. It's one of my favorites but I thought it may be good to save a fresh bunch of seeds. That's why I bagged the entire plant this year.
 
So riddle me this Señor CaneDog. This plant has always produced yellow pods. This was a 2017 pod.
 
 
This year, every pod looks like this. How can this possibly happen? It's never made a red pod in it's lifetime and now it won't make a yellow pod. I know it's not a plant mix up because I only have one of these plants. It's a pet and gets a prime spot in the OW shelter every year.

 
Jeez, DWB.  How about an easy one next time?  My first reaction is to say I don’t think this can occur without the introduction of new genetic material. However, it's harder to prove things can't happen, so I’ll think it through more and maybe lay out my understanding of the genetics in better detail when I have a little more time.  This is a really good question to think through the related genetics and hopefully understand them better.
 
Here’s my quickie answer.  The reason I tend to think it can’t occur in a controlled self-pollination scenario is that a red-pod pepper requires either 1 or 2 dominant alleles at each genetic location that controls (carotenoid-based) mature fruit color. To have a yellow requires 2 recessive genes at one of the locations – the “y” locus.  Once you have 2 recessive alleles at the “y” locus, there’s no way to get a dominant "red" gene/allele on the “y” locus again so it shouldn’t be possible to get a true red pod without new genetic material contributing a dominant allele at the “y” locus.
 
A little more detail - and if anyone wants to contribute to the discussion jump right in. A dominant red allele can hide a recessive "yellow" allele that can appear later, because if there’s both a dominant red and a recessive yellow allele at the “y” loci the pod will show red (this would be an “unstable” red pod that you’d grow out to F9 or so to make it highly likely that no recessive allele were hiding). That plant would be able to self-pollinate in the future and pair up 2 recessive yellow alleles because it has the recessive yellow allele in its genetic code.  Because both alleles must be recessive at the “y” allele to cause a yellow pod, there’s never going to be a red allele “hiding” in the genetic code to appear in a future generation.  There’s no way to “hide” a dominant allele.  This is why when you select for recessive phenotype(s) your plant can be stable at F2.   If even 1 dominant red existed at the “y” locus, it would cause the pod to be red and you'd see that you weren't yet stable. 
 
This is a bit of a simplification because there are multiple genetic loci controlling carotenoid-based mature pod color - there aren't actually "red" and "yellow" alleles - but it’s probably good for the basics.
 
Great looking pods by the way.  How is the flavor with the red pods?  Is it good?  Is it at all similar?  Is the heat similar?  Also, I like the full plant bags and bought a bolt of 48" wide tulle for building them, but I'm not finding a great method for taping/gluing them into shape.  Can you share how you do it?

 

[DWB]

 
 
Jeez, DWB.  How about an easy one next time?  My first reaction is to say I don’t think this can occur without the introduction of new genetic material. However, it's harder to prove things can't happen, so I’ll think it through more and maybe lay out my understanding of the genetics in better detail when I have a little more time.  This is a really good question to think through the related genetics and hopefully understand them better.
 
Here’s my quickie answer.  The reason I tend to think it can’t occur in a controlled self-pollination scenario is that a red-pod pepper requires either 1 or 2 dominant alleles at each genetic location that controls (carotenoid-based) mature fruit color. To have a yellow requires 2 recessive genes at one of the locations – the “y” locus.  Once you have identical recessive genes on the “y” locus, there’s no way to get a dominant "red" gene/allele on the “y” locus again so it shouldn’t be possible to get a true red pod without new genetic material contributing a dominant allele at the “y” locus.
 
A little more detail - and if anyone wants to contribute to the discussion jump right in. A dominant red allele can hide a recessive "yellow" allele that can appear later, because if there’s both a dominant red and a recessive yellow allele at the “y” loci the pod will show red (this would be an “unstable” red pod that you’d grow out to F9 or so to make it highly likely that no recessive allele were hiding). That plant would be able to self-pollinate in the future and pair up 2 recessive yellow alleles because it has the recessive yellow allele in its genetic code.  Because both alleles must be recessive at the “y” allele to cause a yellow pod, there’s never going to be a red allele “hiding” in the genetic code to appear in a future generation.  There’s no way to “hide” a dominant allele.  This is why when you select for recessive phenotype(s) your plant can be stable at F2.   If even 1 dominant red existed at the “y” locus, it would cause the pod to be red and you'd see that you weren't yet stable. 
 
This is a bit of a simplification because there are multiple genetic loci controlling carotenoid-based mature pod color - there aren't actually "red" and "yellow" alleles - but it’s probably good for the basics.
 
Great looking pods by the way.  How is the flavor with the red pods?  Is it good?  Is it at all similar?  Is the heat similar?  Also, I like the full plant bags and bought a bolt of 48" wide tulle for building them, but I'm not finding a great method for taping/gluing them into shape.  Can you share how you do it?
 

 
Thanks for your help with trying to figure this out. It's been driving me bugshit since I watched the first iso pod, and every one thereafter, go straight to red.  No comprendé. The only logical answer is it's impossible, but there it is.
 
I remembered something else. When I did all the cutting back on the OW plants in January, I cut a special branch off the yellow scorpion to bring in the house and clone rather than put it in the 5 gal ripening buckets with all the other trimmings. As they always do, the cutting did well in the south kitchen window where it spent the winter growing roots and flowers and tiny pods.
 
Here it is getting ready to be planted. See the lil yellow pod? Click to enbiggen a whole bunch. It's definitely a scorpion.
 

 
Ah jeez, the old post failure go to forum index just hit me again. Saved by the auto save. Try again after a CTRL-C and now try splitting the post in two parts.

 

[DWB]

Well, that worked. Here's the rest... I hope.
 
The link leads back to the April story about the transplanting here on THP.
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/71175-and-i-thought-peppers-were-easy-to-clone/page-2#entry1625649

No, the red peppers off this plant are hugely different from the yellows. The yellows were fruity, sweet and delicious. Plenty hot. Maybe like an 800k snacking pepper and wonderful sliced up on a salad or sandwich. The red off this plant is violently hot. I ate a piece off the bottom about the size of my little fingernail and it hurt me. Very hot with the typical flowery scorpion taste. I think at least 500-600k hotter than the yellows  were. More like meh, just another redhot.
I have 54" tulle. I cut the stuff to length, fold in half, mate the long edges, fold over by a half inch or so, stretch and weight to immobilize and squirt a large bead of hot glue from end to end. Move my weights and glue those places. Same across the top. I'm kinda surprised but the seams are holding up well even with some of the plants trying their best to grow their way out of the bags.

 

[CaneDog]

So wait, I think I got mixed up and this is even weirder than I first thought.  It sounds like the plant was started in Nov 2016 then produced yellow pods in 2017 and 2018, but now it's producing red pods in 2019?!  And you took a cutting from it in Jan 2019 that is currently producing a yellow pod?  Is that the situation?  That definitely doesn't make any sense. You know, the logical thing would be plant mix-up, especially with the taste and heat differences and what-not, but I hear you saying "no way" on that.  Just weird stuff.  Can't think of any other logical way that would have happened.  I can tell you this though, I've had some weird stuff happen before too and sometimes I remember later and it makes sense and sometimes it just goes in the WTH file to be a mystery forever.
 
So, for the tulle, I have 48" and was using duct/gorilla type tape with glue and staples and it's just too heavy.  At 48" it's also kinda tight to get around plants. I made a little structure to rotate a few plants through, but mainly i'm just using the "million monkeys" method with the 4x6 organza bags and repeating attempts until something takes. I might try the glue method. I'd just have to run the tulle the other way so I can get a wider diameter and stick with plants < 48" so it covers..
 
Hey, one other question for you.  How do you get your cuttings to root so well?  I have always struggled with pepper cuttings.

 

[DWB]

So wait, I think I got mixed up and this is even weirder than I first thought.  It sounds like the plant was started in Nov 2016 then produced yellow pods in 2017 and 2018, but now it's producing red pods in 2019?!  And you took a cutting from it in Jan 2019 that is currently producing a yellow pod?  Is that the situation?  That definitely doesn't make any sense. You know, the logical thing would be plant mix-up, especially with the taste and heat differences and what-not, but I hear you saying "no way" on that.  Just weird stuff.  Can't think of any other logical way that would have happened.  I can tell you this though, I've had some weird stuff happen before too and sometimes I remember later and it makes sense and sometimes it just goes in the WTH file to be a mystery forever.
 
So, for the tulle, I have 48" and was using duct/gorilla type tape with glue and staples and it's just too heavy.  At 48" it's also kinda tight to get around plants. I made a little structure to rotate a few plants through, but mainly i'm just using the "million monkeys" method with the 4x6 organza bags and repeating attempts until something takes. I might try the glue method. I'd just have to run the tulle the other way so I can get a wider diameter and stick with plants < 48" so it covers..
 
Hey, one other question for you.  How do you get your cuttings to root so well?  I have always struggled with pepper cuttings.

 
I just drop cuttings into a pitcher of water and wait for the roots. Sometimes it takes a long time. I change the water every week or so and just leave them in the windowsill all winter.
 
Yes, this stuff is weird as a $17 bill with a trumpy picture on the front. I started the yellow scorpion plant from seed Nov 2016. It produced the same UFO looking yellow peppers through 2017 and 2018. I cloned a cutting off the plant when I hacked all my plants mid-January and downsized the pots so they'd all fit in the hillbilly winter shelter. The clone grew roots, flowers and small yellow pods and was ready to rock and roll. Unfortunately, I was getting burned out with planting around about mid- April and rather than taking proper care, I simply dropped it into one of the new hay bales I hauled in to use in the isolation area and a garden annex. The yellow scorpion, three sharpei, two douglah and a fatalii keeled over with the pythium root rot that apparently came in these bales.
 
None of that hurt me bad at the time but now I am very sad that I've lost my yellow unless the old OW decides to come back to the right side of life. I do still have seeds from the same pod that gave me the Nov 2016 start so I guess I'll start over again next year.
 
My OW plants are all goofed up this year. My 2015 model reaper that gave me the very cool "bad girl" pod is coming back huge this year but still hasn't popped a flower. Usually by this time of year that plant is producing like there's no tomorrow.
 

 

[CaneDog]

My Yaki Blue isn't producing much yet, but it has this one decent pod on it. At least there's seeds for the future in there. 
I hope...
 

 

[internationalfish]

Oooh. Love those purple pods! Have you grown this before? Curious about the heat and flavor on those.

 

[CaneDog]

Oooh. Love those purple pods! Have you grown this before? Curious about the heat and flavor on those.

 
Never grown it before. Grew it inside over the winter, but cut it back before it produced then moved it outside where it sulked and shot me dirty looks every time I watered it.  it's finally coming around now. Supposedly the pods look pretty cool when the red mixes in as they ripen.  There's some question as to what the original cross truly is (Bhut w/ Filius Blue or PdN) and whether there's multiple pheno's floating around, but regardless, mine is what it is.
 
For an anthocyanin variety it's suppose to be good tasting - and very hot at +/- 800K.

 
 
I thought of it more as a hobby pepper at first, but now I'm curious how I'll like it and what could be done with it.

 

[CaneDog]

 
Mostly varieties I bought or received.. I've got a couple of Jukka's crosses I'm saving pure seed from, but nothing much yet of my own. 
Duke Baccatum x PI260567
Clavo Red x Carolina Reaper, which I noticed he took off the site now.. Also one I'm resorting to alternative methods of isolation.

I also have a few wild hybrids going too, which I'm saving seed from, including my Super Hot Mystery, which is looking rather habish now that the first one is coloring. 
I should start updating my trade list soon.
Will do! Thanks!!

 
Cool stuff!  Clavo Red is on my short list, but I haven't had seeds come available conveniently yet. I'd be curious what you think of the cross with CR.  Wonder how stable it is. I don't remember that cross being around any length of time, but that doesn't mean it wasn't.

 

[CaneDog]

 
None of that hurt me bad at the time but now I am very sad that I've lost my yellow unless the old OW decides to come back to the right side of life. I do still have seeds from the same pod that gave me the Nov 2016 start so I guess I'll start over again next year.
 

 
Yeah, I hate losing those old good varieties that I remember did so well.  Never intend to let it happen, but the growing gets so busy at certain times together with everything else it just seems to happen.  Good that you have those seeds and hopefully they produce another winner.
 
I'm going to be watching your glog to see what the patch looks like when you pull the shade cloth.  If you could somehow get an aerial type shot...

 

[dragonsfire]

That Yaki Blue looks real nice