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Caribbean Red chile facts

hot stuff said:
In Boland and DeWitt's first book they note that habaneros were indeed found in Cuba hence the name Habenero ie. from Havana.
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Still theory, not fact.
From Dave Dewitt
"But what about the Cuban connection? Isn't that the origin of habanero, meaning "from Havana"? Pepper experts have long debated the possible Cuban origin for the habaneros that are grown today in the Yucatán Peninsula of Mexico and Belize. Mexican horticulturists Cancino Laborde and P. Pozo Compodonico stated that the habanero is the only pepper in Yucatán without a Mayan name, which would indicate that it was imported. We have grown out seeds from Cuban immigrants which turned into the familiar orange habaneros, another indication of their Cuban origin."
 
POTAWIE said:
I haven't travelled a lot through Mexico but I've never seen habaneros in any markets I did visit. I know Willard and others have the same opinion as me
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Obviously I'd defer to Willard on that one, since he lives there. I know I've been served hab recipes in Jalisco on two occasions and have seen them in supermarkets (NOT local open air markets) elsewhere.
 
POTAWIE said:
Still theory, not fact.
From Dave Dewitt
"But what about the Cuban connection? Isn't that the origin of habanero, meaning "from Havana"? Pepper experts have long debated the possible Cuban origin for the habaneros that are grown today in the Yucatán Peninsula of Mexico and Belize. Mexican horticulturists Cancino Laborde and P. Pozo Compodonico stated that the habanero is the only pepper in Yucatán without a Mayan name, which would indicate that it was imported. We have grown out seeds from Cuban immigrants which turned into the familiar orange habaneros, another indication of their Cuban origin."
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It's ALL theory, is it not?

So was I right about my perception of the naming convention as we discussed earlier, or am I still off?

What is your source on a Yucatan origin of the hab? I can only find Peru and Colombia.

Not trying to needle, I promise. Just very fascinated about why there is so little information out there on this kind of thing. I suppose interest is 'specialized'. lol.
 
The title asks for facts and what was provided was stated as a fact but is only really a theory so I had to say something.
Now the problem is having to define "originate". If someone asks about your ancestory, I guess we could all just say we're from Africa :)
The way I see it, the habanero has been growing in Mexico for so long that it has evolved into a unique C. chinense landrace variety, so I say it originated there. I just can't see these Cuban chinenses that were mentioned being the same after all these years. That is if they did indeed come from Havana.

BTW, habaneros are now a protected variety in Mexico
http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/21483-habaneros-designation-of-origin-raises-questions/page__pid__448009#entry448009
 
POTAWIE said:
The title asks for facts and what was provided was stated as a fact but is only really a theory so I had to say something.
Now the problem is having to define "originate". If someone asks about your ancestory, I guess we could all just say we're from Africa :)
The way I see it, the habanero has been growing in Mexico for so long that it has evolved into a unique C. chinense landrace variety, so I say it originated there. I just can't see these Cuban chinenses that were mentioned being the same after all these years. That is if they did indeed come from Havana.

BTW, habaneros are now a protected variety in Mexico
http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/21483-habaneros-designation-of-origin-raises-questions/page__pid__448009#entry448009
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As long as any statement is qualified, then I see no problem with it. :)

So do you mind answering my other questions, if you have the time/inclination? I'd love to know, but you don't seem forthcoming. :)

No big deal either way. If you want me to leave it be, I will.
 
POTAWIE said:
The title asks for facts and what was provided was stated as a fact but is only really a theory so I had to say something.
Now the problem is having to define "originate". If someone asks about your ancestory, I guess we could all just say we're from Africa :)
The way I see it, the habanero has been growing in Mexico for so long that it has evolved into a unique C. chinense landrace variety, so I say it originated there. I just can't see these Cuban chinenses that were mentioned being the same after all these years. That is if they did indeed come from Havana.

BTW, habaneros are now a protected variety in Mexico
http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/21483-habaneros-designation-of-origin-raises-questions/page__pid__448009#entry448009
Click to expand...

I have to agree. The geographic and phylogenetic origin of the modern habanero are not as relevant as where on the earth its current form established itself as a true landrace.

What about, however, all the sub-varieties of the habanero, such as "chocolate" or "lemon?" Leaving aside the recent name protection granted by the Mexican government, can it be said that any C. chinense with the word "habanero" in its name is a landrace type of the Yucatan peninsula? Just asking; I would love to settle this question, in my mind, at least...
 
You could argue that only orange habs are real habs. Most chile with the name habanero are not hab shaped, hab colored or hab flavored.

"The second nomenclature problem is with the word habanero (sometimes erroneously spelled habañero), when it is used in English to represent the entire chinense species. That appellation is a misnomer because there are dozens--if not hundreds--of pod types within the species, and the Spanish name habanero technically refers to a specific pod type from the Yucatán Peninsula. But because consumers in the United States were familiar with the Mexican peppers, habanero became the buzz word for the species--even to the point where writers were calling the Scotch bonnet a type of "habanero." Wrong. The Scotch bonnet and habanero are different pod types of the same species. Despite all this logic, we admit that the word habanero has come into common usage as the generic term for the species--and that is why we use it in that manner."
http://www.fiery-foods.com/pepper-profiles/153-chinense-species/97-pepper-profile-habanero
 
POTAWIE said:
You could argue that only orange habs are real habs. Most chile with the name habanero are not hab shaped, hab colored or hab flavored.

"The second nomenclature problem is with the word habanero (sometimes erroneously spelled habañero), when it is used in English to represent the entire chinense species. That appellation is a misnomer because there are dozens--if not hundreds--of pod types within the species, and the Spanish name habanero technically refers to a specific pod type from the Yucatán Peninsula. But because consumers in the United States were familiar with the Mexican peppers, habanero became the buzz word for the species--even to the point where writers were calling the Scotch bonnet a type of "habanero." Wrong. The Scotch bonnet and habanero are different pod types of the same species. Despite all this logic, we admit that the word habanero has come into common usage as the generic term for the species--and that is why we use it in that manner."
http://www.fiery-foods.com/pepper-profiles/153-chinense-species/97-pepper-profile-habanero
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Heh. Then there's no sorting it out into neat pigeonholes. I think part of me rather admires all the ambiguity in chile taxonomy...like people, they can't really be neatly classified.
 
Eephus Man said:
I think I finally understand.

In your opinion, this pepper is not a 'true' habanero because it was likely developed by crossing with another type of pepper not found in the Yucatan peninsula and that it may therefore derive its common name from that secondary pepper parent. Is that right?

I guess I thought it was developed in Mexico and named for it's location close to the Caribbean Sea.

Perhaps we are both correct. :)
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Now I get thrown a negative reputation :)
Was this your unanswered question?
As I said before, I don't know the whole history or the CR but my guess is that it is a cross with another type of red pepper not found in the Yucatan, possibly a Caribbean pepper. Its possibly a mutant too but you could still argue that habaneros are only orange which is basically my opinion just like real Nagas, scorpions and 7pods are only red :)

"All my sources indicate that real habaneros, and even the Caribbean red, are specifically from geographical south-east Mexico. As I said before, a hab could have been crossed with a red colored Caribbean(Geographical) type pepper to make a red "hab" but then it would only really be a half-hab in my opinion, and maybe it is. I'm quite sure this is a fairly new pepper, and my guess is that it is a stable cross and not a mutant, but thats just an educated guess. You'll notice that habaneros are the only Mexican C. chinenses and they are not that popular at all in most of Mexico, its only in the Peninsula area that you'll usually see them at all"
 
At the market here there were some red habaneros that were just listed as "habaneros". Question that came to my mind was how do I tell whether they are Caribbean Reds or Red Savinas?
 
I feel somewhat compelled to step back in momentarily, since the whole reason this thread exists is because of me...

I think that clarity and constraint is crucial for debates/discussions/arguments etc., and maybe I can add a little bit. The more well defined a question, the quicker it usually is to come to some sort of understanding, mostly because of the reduction of variables to talk about.

I think that most reliable sources (NMSU CPI, thechileman.org) call this particular chile pepper the Caribbean Red Habanero, not to mention that most people on this board call it that by name as well.

That said, if we are talking about the origin of all habanero C. Chinenses, I think it is safe to say that the Yucatan Peninsula and Belize are the origin. The Caribbean Red Habanero may have been a cross between a true orange Habanero and another C. Chinense from the Caribbean, as Potawie has suggested, but who is to say unless someone can offer some evidence beyond theory and conjecture. The point being is that it is irrelevant the discussion in my eyes. The Caribbean Red Habanero is associated with the Yucatan Peninsula, and has been grown there long enough to have a distinct association with the area. The Yucatan Peninsula is part of the Caribbean, therefore the Caribbean Red Habanero is from the Caribbean. Just to be clear, the Yucatan Peninsula contains three states of Mexico, which are Yucatan, Campeche, and Quintana Roo. Literature that I have read never makes a distinction that it is only from the state of Yucatan, but the Yucatan Peninsula as a whole. It boils down to whether or not you agree that the Yucatan Peninsula is in the Caribbean, which I do.

If we take everything to its logical conclusion then all chile peppers originated from somewhere in in the heart of South America near Peru, Brazil, whatever....

One could say that the Bhut Jolokia originated not from India, but instead from the heart of South America, and he/she would technically be correct, but he/she would also be wrong if you believe that you have to recognize change and migration and climate and all that other stuff. Potawie referenced this earlier when he said that all humans originated from Africa, but I would not consider myself African. I am white and from the North America, The United States, North Carolina etc. I have no association with Africa. So we must recognize some sort of time frame where we can say, "Okay, (insert number here) years is long enough to stop referencing the ancestral origin."

I think the case of Caribbean Red Habanero qualifies. Some others clearly disagree. So it comes down to how technical and literal you want to get. I refer to only the Caribbean Red Habanero in this discussion, and nothing else. It is labeled by the NMSU CPI, among other sources, as a Caribbean Red Habanero, and if you think they know what they are talking about, it is not going out on a limb to say that it is indeed a C. Chinense that is red, is a Habanero, and is from the Caribbean (if you actually agree that the Yucatan Peninsula is part of the Caribbean).

I'm not sure how it can be broken down any further. I just hope they taste as good as I think they will considering all the effort I have put into this debate! Might just stick with my Bhut Jolokias from Peru... :lol:
 
hot stuff said:
Theory is a pretty strong word if you strongly disagree with it. You probably mean educated guess.
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An educated guess would be a personal observation, this is a popular theory.

I guess(educated) that we all have to agree to disagree on issues like "what technically makes a pepper a habaneros?" I just have a problem calling a Mexican pepper a Caribbean pepper, its confusing since Caribbean peppers have always been classified seperately
 
I think part of the taxonomy problem is that "Habanero" is more a description of the pod shape than it is of the geographic area where it originated. Take a look at how Cross Country Nursery classifies peppers by pod type as an example of this...
 
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