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chinense Carolina Reaper and Pepper Stabilization

*In response to the video posted
 
What is the purpose of saying that "you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain"?  It is a contradiction!  By you growing them you have a 'dog in the fight'.  Do you not get compensated for supplying Ed with CR's?  Is that not a 'gain'? Let's say they have a banner year and expect next years demands to be even bigger.  Would that not be a 'gain' for you?  Let's say it goes the other way and the public gets tired of all this drama or the next hottest thing comes out, do you think if there is no demand that Ed will not scale down his contracts with growers?  As you stated besides Ed, O.B.N is "the biggest one in the world to your knowledge" supplier of CR's.  So in essence you have the BIGGEST stock out of the CR contracted growers.  Bottom line it comes down to "you don't bite the hand that feeds you".

Mike I would like to pose this question to you:

If I understand your video correctly you are personally vouching to the public that the Carolina Reapers are stable?  Just from your 'sampling' alone (2,200).  Out of those 36 were "variations", "untrue", and "not reapers".  Will those 36 untrue plant's pods & seeds make it back to Ed or will they be culled?

I would like to get your personal and in good business sense opinion for those 1.6%r's who received the "variations", "untrue" "not reapers", should they not be entitled to a refund?  After all as you stated they sold 10's of 1,000's of seeds and what is a mere 30, 40, 50 that you've run across as to not receiving the 'TRUE' seeds.  Because under your terms they "are not reapers'. Do you not agree that is bad business?  Jumping over dollars to pick up change!
 
Is there even any hard science that shows the difference between these traits and what is are Genotypes and what are Phenotypes in peppers and then on top of that you have Epistasis. 
 
I am still confused on this all this.  Its a spliting of hairs that really does not further anything.  The genetics of the plant may or may not be stable depending on each growers definition of what stable is beyond that does it matter.  
 
I grew Padrons this year, I love them but one of my family members cannot handle any chance of getting a "hot" pepper so they refuse to grow them.  
 
Ultimately its up to each grower if they are happy with the plant, and should act accordingly to their feelings.  IE...  If your happy great its money well spent and keep the seeds from pods that you really like.  If unhappy ask for your money back, and/or tell your friends why you would not grow or buy this product.
 
poypoyking said:
Great consistency in your plants Mike.  I wonder if the majority of the users here (inclucding me) who have variation in the pods got seeds from a bad batch?  Most seed companies contract out like you are doing for the seeds.  I think as a user base we are trending well over 1.6% variation in the reaper.
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My thoughts exactly after watching Mike's very well done vid. So, maybe one (or more) of Ed's contract growers had some bad practices that resulted in the inconsistency.
 
ERHotties said:
*In response to the video posted
 
What is the purpose of saying that "you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain"?  It is a contradiction!  By you growing them you have a 'dog in the fight'.  Do you not get compensated for supplying Ed with CR's?  Is that not a 'gain'? Let's say they have a banner year and expect next years demands to be even bigger.  Would that not be a 'gain' for you?  Let's say it goes the other way and the public gets tired of all this drama or the next hottest thing comes out, do you think if there is no demand that Ed will not scale down his contracts with growers?  As you stated besides Ed, O.B.N is "the biggest one in the world to your knowledge" supplier of CR's.  So in essence you have the BIGGEST stock out of the CR contracted growers.  Bottom line it comes down to "you don't bite the hand that feeds you".

Mike I would like to pose this question to you:

If I understand your video correctly you are personally vouching to the public that the Carolina Reapers are stable?  Just from your 'sampling' alone (2,200).  Out of those 36 were "variations", "untrue", and "not reapers".  Will those 36 untrue plant's pods & seeds make it back to Ed or will they be culled?

I would like to get your personal and in good business sense opinion for those 1.6%r's who received the "variations", "untrue" "not reapers", should they not be entitled to a refund?  After all as you stated they sold 10's of 1,000's of seeds and what is a mere 30, 40, 50 that you've run across as to not receiving the 'TRUE' seeds.  Because under your terms they "are not reapers'. Do you not agree that is bad business?  Jumping over dollars to pick up change!
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Thanks for questions.
1. No I don't have stake. I have a set price or all these pods this season. It expires march 2014. Reapers are a very small percentage of my overall crop. I'm already planning next season and even 2015 season and that is without any expectations of growing for Ed. I knew this was a one year deal. If we make another next year great. If not that is ok also. Ill shake his hand, say thank you and move on. As I also said in video, not biting the hand tht feeds me. If all the sudden all these plants turned into orange Habs, Ed is contracted to buy them. But they won't lol

My point about 30-50 ppl getting wrong thing wasn't to say "to bad for you"...was simply saying statistically from a quality control perspective an be it peppers or cars, it's a VERY small amount in the overall scheme. Of course everyone wants 0% deviation with any kind of product. Is tht realistic? No
 
I am growing three Carolina Reaper plants. Two in the ground and one in a six gallon bucket.
Here is the first one. This one is in the ground.
xReaper3_zps7b25dc1a.jpg

 
Here is a closer look at this plant. As you can see it does have one odd shaped pod on it. ;)
 
xReaper4_zps851a7049.jpg

 
Here is my second plant. This one is in the ground growing next to the previous plant.
 
xReaper5_zps2bc572f2.jpg

 
xReaper6_zpsdf8f0a00.jpg

 
Here is my third plant. This one is in a six gallon bucket.
 
carolina_reaper_12_zpse59b3f48.jpg

 
Reaper13_zps3724a16f.jpg

 
Reaper14_zps4afd157c.jpg

 
My seeds came from Pepper Joe. 

 
 
Chile Face said:
I have a question, what does it matter?
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Well I am not growing the Reaper, but I certainly can
answer this.  Money... People paid for something and did not get what they thought, and on top of that spent allot of time which to many like myself is once again more Money.  
 


 
 
MisterBigglesworth said:
My 2 cents - if there hadn't been so much hype when the pepper was announced there wouldn't have been so much blowback.
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I think that is the crux of the matter right there, Added to the fact that everyone feels duped because nobody (Read- Ed or Pepperjoe) except a commercial grower is attempting to give a reasoned answer as to why these variations are happening.
 
I also think this is a bigger issue because personally I have never seen the amount of genetic variation posted here before on a commercially sold variety (never mind the traded open pollinated varieties which people can reasonably expect to be a little unstable) across multiple countries and growers.  For every 2 decent reapers I have seen on here there will be one completely off the wall.  A simple explanation would have put this to rest right at the start ... instead now we have lawyers involved and still nothing from puckerbutt or his posse.
 
Quite frankly I am excited to grow anything gnarly and hopefully my reapers turn out as such ... however whether you buy 10 seeds or 2200 you should expect the same treatment from any reputable seller or company worth their salt.  I am yet to see the little people (hobby growers) be taken care of here or answered or even appear to be listened to (which will be a huge pat of this business make no mistake except not all at once), which is contrary to the community spirit with which we all (should) pride ourselves on.
 
The only people I have heard speak glowingly of Puckerbutt so far are a Commercial reseller of his seeds and a commercial contract grower of his pods. Many other smaller growers that have had contact with them since being sold seeds seem to have had legal threats and less then savoury dealings with them and still no word from the company themselves.  I am not calling into question anybodies integrity or honesty just calling a spade a spade and looking at things from an outside perspective (I really will be pissed if my limited space is taken up with the yellow hab type variation this season but thems the breaks :D )
 
I think the whole thing is sad to be honest ... it could have been taken care of ... it wasn't ... and now look what it does to the chilli community on here.
 
Anyway like my past thread .... nevermind the bollocks ... lets all move on and keep on growing (whether 1 or 3000 plants its about the growing and the eating after all)
 
Cheers
 
mmcdermott1 said:
Thanks for questions.
1. No I don't have stake. I have a set price or all these pods this season. It expires march 2014. Reapers are a very small percentage of my overall crop. I'm already planning next season and even 2015 season and that is without any expectations of growing for Ed. I knew this was a one year deal. If we make another next year great. If not that is ok also. Ill shake his hand, say thank you and move on. As I also said in video, not biting the hand tht feeds me. If all the sudden all these plants turned into orange Habs, Ed is contracted to buy them. But they won't lol

My point about 30-50 ppl getting wrong thing wasn't to say "to bad for you"...was simply saying statistically from a quality control perspective an be it peppers or cars, it's a VERY small amount in the overall scheme. Of course everyone wants 0% deviation with any kind of product. Is tht realistic? No
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Thank you for your response Mike!

If you can kindly further indulge me in a few more answers?

1. How many of the 36 'Untrue' plants by-products (pods/seeds) will make it back to Ed?  That would be (in your terms) 1.6% of your gross yield that would be effected.  Lets not do this dance.  The question I am trying to get at "will the by-product of the 'untrue' plants be passed on to the consumers (hobbyist/growers)?"

2. I'm going to use your # as an example (leaning more so on being conservative).  Lets use the 1% 'untrue' and 99% 'true' (in place of the 1.6%).  Lets also use 30 people (again conservative #'s) who publicly posted of having grown 'untrue' plants.  With those numbers 2,970 received 'true' plants.  3k packets at $10 each = $30k.  Follow me so far?  To not offer a refund (a total of $300) does that make good business sense?  I can tell you that if they stood behind their product and try to make some kind of amends to those dissatisfied customers, they would easily make that loss back (not to mention it's a tax write off).  But instead they choose to go with the attitude 'it is what it is'.  How many do you think just this reason alone have turned away potential new and repeat buyers (definitely more than $300 worth)?  Again jumping over dollars to pick up change!  With this example does it make any sense not to refund those who got the 'untrue' seeds?  The only reason I can see if the number of refunds will be much higher than 1.6%.

To remain on topic:
I for one do this as a hobby.  I am also one of those who received the 'untrue' strain (bhut shape).  I will be conducting my own test.  I'm curious to see what will grow out from the 'untrue' seeds.  Will they re-produce the 'untrue', 'true' or a combination?
 
ER,
1. The odd balls I will most likely keep unless ed wants them for something which I doubt he does. They are still pretty cool as you will see in video. I may grow them out with his permission for a while and see if they stay the same.
2. In terms of biz practice, I'm not gonna comment on how Joe or Ed does business as it is their "business" no pun intended. I would be HIGHLY surprised however if either one of them would not replace if you asked. Obviously that doesnt help you this year but just saying. And remember, this isnt the first pepper that has had people say it didnt grow right. Accidents happen. We run Old Barn Nursery as you know and although I honestly have never had one single complaint about something not growing right, I would bet the farm some people have gotten seeds that were not right. There is NO excuse for this and I am not making any but NOBODY can work with the numbers of seeds that some of these bigger growers do (I consider myself smaller but still handle a lot of seeds) and not make a few mistakes regardless of how well the quality control is.
 
Hope that answered your questions.
 
Ok..now to end my stay in this conversation. Some people (not many) are saying after the video that im a liar because I didn't show peppers or that I got special seeds or hand picked seeds or had favoritism shown to me because Im a commercial grower. Hell one guy even said on youtube that those plants in the first video were TOMATOES not peppers lmao. Factually put, untrue, untrue, untrue and yes...UNTRUE. 
 
So to the remaining few that are still out there..here is your video. Im very confident that this still will not make you a believer but that is ok. I have other things to do like grow peppers so I wont be posting anymore videos. Believe what you want and happy growing to all..and remember..its just peppers folks :)
 
Good day to all
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8e4ZINutU8&feature=youtu.be
 
I have posted a few times about how satisfied that I am with my Carolina Reapers and Pepper Joe but it seems like no one really wants to hear anything positive.
In case you may have missed my previous posts then I'd like to say again that I am extremely satisfied with my seeds. They had a 70% germination rate for me which isn't bad considering I have never grown a super hot pepper in the past. All of my plants appear to be true.
I am also very happy with Joe's customer service. I've also had all of my growing questions answered by Joe. 
Great experience so far. I definitely plan on buying from him again.
 
I'm with Mike on this one, Ed will make it right if ypur seeds don't grow true. This was blown out of proportion, I'm sure due to all the hype as mentioned above. Enjoy the Reaper madness Mike! Love your pods. :)
 
I have been reading the now 8 pages of this thread and am hearing about things I haven't heard of yet and will be looking through other parts of the forum to see if I can find some answers to my questions, like the destroying of entire crops of plants by growers. I will at least talk about my situation and results.
Right now, I have 12 plants producing peppers and have another half dozen plants, but haven't produced yet. Only 3 plants are producing peppers that have tails at all and 2 plants produce peppers that look like the original pictures that I saw that made me decide I wanted to make my purchases of seeds. 2 plants have longer, thin, smooth pods and most of the others look close to bhut pods.(those were the hottest and best tasting though) I'm not going to bitch about 2 plants that don't look the same, but 3 at best, out of 12 plants looking close to what I paid for is not a good rate of consistancy. I don't think anyone would think so. I don't know how many people with more than 10 plants that are producing, have the consistancy that mmcdermott1 gets on his. He is the ONLY person I have heard of so far that had this kind of consistancy with numbers of plants. It would make anyone think twice that maybe he got some good seeds and everyone else got something else if he got those seeds to sell back to the original producer, but I truly hope there is no correlation between these two things.
This whole lack of pod consistancy in shape, heat and taste has bothered me, but I at least still figured I could make powder and that way nobody has to worry about pod shape and the heat gets averaged in the powder. Now I find out this is the LEAST of my worries.
I bought my seeds as an INVESTMENT for my business and now I am hearing I can't sell anything I am producing, if that is correct. My background is in finance and along with all my courses, that included 2 full years of business law and another 3 classes that dealt with the same kind of thing, like a class just on contract law. I bought my seeds from Pepper Joe. NOTHING on his site said that there was a trademark on this name or that the peppers produced couldn't be sold. There was nothing that said that these seeds could only be used for hobby use and not for resale. At the time I made my purchase,in the act of buying these, I was promised a pod that looked a certain way, promised a good tasting pod, AND that it was the hottest pepper in the world. Since the Primo pepper already existed, and to myself and others, that we have already found that the Primo is consistantly hotter than this reaper, not even that was true. So really, that is itself is a breach of contract on their part. BUT, this whole commercial aspect is over the top. I have just looked through Ed's site and see in the terms that the seeds can't be used for commercial use unless it is worked out with Ed. I can't say if those words were in his site at the time I bought my seeds, but a lawyer would argue that what Ed says on his site has no relevance to what Joe is doing on his site. Yes, Ed's site says that what his affiliates sell is covered by this same rule, but I never looked at his site when making my purchase, and a reasonable person should not have been expected to look at his site before making a purchase from Joe's site. My purchase contract was with Joe and there was NO restrictions for use, expressed or implied, and that was the terms of my contract. There wasn't even anything saying look at Ed's site before you make your investment of seeds. There still, is no TM next to the Carolina Reaper name anywhere. I know my business law very well and I know what I signed in for when making what I thought was an investent. If it came to a law suit, I think my lawyer could beat this easily. If it came to a jury of my peers, given the facts of my purchase contract, I don't think any jury in this nation would uphold a verdict that would not allow me to sell my peppers, seeds, and powder. Keep in mind that when people sue for damages, the total cost is the cost of the seeds, all of the material it took to grow out all these plants and to be conpensated for ALL the time I have spent, and the labor costs I had to deal with to pay others to take care of the plants. In some countries, when you kill someone's chicken, they can sue for the cost of all the eggs they would have produced as well, so you might have an outside chance at getting the money estimated that you could have made by the sale of all the peppers you produce over the lifetime of the plants, and not just one season! I'm sorry for a bit of ranting, but this is the first I have heard of this new situation, and I am not happy camper, thats for sure. Tom
 
Ocho Cinco, can you post images of your pods?  I suspect the lack of response is because your case is as it should be - true plants with good germ rates. Obviously your experience is positive, the question is how will the customer service be for those with less positive experiences.
 
cycadjungle said:
I have been reading the now 8 pages of this thread and am hearing about things I haven't heard of yet and will be looking through other parts of the forum to see if I can find some answers to my questions, like the destroying of entire crops of plants by growers. I will at least talk about my situation and results.Right now, I have 12 plants producing peppers and have another half dozen plants, but haven't produced yet. Only 3 plants are producing peppers that have tails at all and 2 plants produce peppers that look like the original pictures that I saw that made me decide I wanted to make my purchases of seeds. 2 plants have longer, thin, smooth pods and most of the others look close to bhut pods.(those were the hottest and best tasting though) I'm not going to bitch about 2 plants that don't look the same, but 3 at best, out of 12 plants looking close to what I paid for is not a good rate of consistancy. I don't think anyone would think so. I don't know how many people with more than 10 plants that are producing, have the consistancy that mmcdermott1 gets on his. He is the ONLY person I have heard of so far that had this kind of consistancy with numbers of plants. It would make anyone think twice that maybe he got some good seeds and everyone else got something else if he got those seeds to sell back to the original producer, but I truly hope there is no correlation between these two things.This whole lack of pod consistancy in shape, heat and taste has bothered me, but I at least still figured I could make powder and that way nobody has to worry about pod shape and the heat gets averaged in the powder. Now I find out this is the LEAST of my

worries.I bought my seeds as an INVESTMENT for my business and now I am hearing I can't sell anything I am producing, if that is correct. My background is in finance and along with all my courses, that included 2 full years of business law and another 3 classes that dealt with the same kind of thing, like a class just on contract law. I bought my seeds from Pepper Joe. NOTHING on his site said that there was a trademark on this name or that the peppers produced couldn't be sold. There was nothing that said that these seeds could only be used for hobby use and not for resale. At the time I made my purchase,in the act of buying these, I was promised a pod that looked a certain way, promised a good tasting pod, AND that it was the hottest pepper in the world. Since the Primo pepper already existed, and to myself and others, that we have already found that the Primo is consistantly hotter than this reaper, not even that was true. So really, that is itself is a breach of contract on their part. BUT, this whole commercial aspect is over the top. I have just looked through Ed's site and see in the terms that the seeds can't be used for commercial use unless it is worked out with Ed. I can't say if those words were in his site at the time I bought my seeds, but a lawyer would argue that what Ed says on his site has no relevance to what Joe is doing on his site. Yes, Ed's site says that what his affiliates sell is covered by this same rule, but I never looked at his site when making my purchase, and a reasonable person should not have been expected to look at his site before making a purchase from Joe's site. My purchase contract was with Joe and there was NO restrictions for use, expressed or implied, and that was the terms of my contract. There wasn't even anything saying look at Ed's site before you make your investment of seeds. There still, is no TM next to the Carolina Reaper name anywhere. I know my business law very well and I know what I signed in for when making what I thought was an investent. If it came to a law suit, I think my lawyer could beat this easily. If it came to a jury of my peers, given the facts of my purchase contract, I don't think any jury in this nation would uphold a verdict that would not allow me to sell my peppers, seeds, and powder. Keep in mind that when people sue for damages, the total cost is the cost of the seeds, all of the material it took to grow out all these plants and to be conpensated for ALL the time I have spent, and the labor costs I had to deal with to pay others to take care of the plants. In some countries, when you kill someone's chicken, they can sue for the cost of all the eggs they would have produced as well, so you might have an outside chance at getting the money estimated that you could have made by the sale of all the peppers you produce over the lifetime of the plants, and not just one season! I'm sorry for a bit of ranting, but this is the first I have heard of this new situation, and I am not happy camper, thats for sure. Tom
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If you purchased the seeds, I'd contact Ed about it. He should send you plants.
I would also agree with you that most growers aren't having nearly the same success rate of the pods seeming to grow true as mmcdermot1
 
 
If you purchased the seeds, I'd contact Ed about it. He should send you plants.
I would also agree with you that most growers aren't having nearly the same success rate of the pods seeming to grow true as mmcdermot1
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Truly, I really don't care all that much that I have 2 good looking, producing plants. I'm not going to sue anyone, or try to get more plants that look what they are to look like. I got fairly crappy germination as well to be bitching about, but even there, bottom line, oh well, these are plants! I sell cycad seeds and even when I plant my own seeds sometimes, I get crappy germination. It happens. I spent about $60 and got, I think, like, 18 good plants. Not as good as I hoped for, but 18 plants for $60 isn't a terrible deal.This thread aws about growing out what you got and my report is that I got lower than medium rate germination and not very good consistancy of pod types. I can take the seeds from the best looking plants and start about 1000 plants and hopefully get something like mmc.... is getting, so for me, that is just one season where I only have a few plants. If I take every seed from every good pod, I could have 4000 plants next year if I wanted, but it looks like I won't want that if this legal stuff pans out. I too don't want to go to court on this. It IS business, but still, its just peppers dammitt. People get so worked up about cycads and them being very rare and hard to find and costly, and then you get into the illegal shipping and moving of cycad materials. Bottom line, it would be nice if these peppers were all fun. I wanted to branch out into growing peppers because I was tired of all the stuff and people dealing with cycads. The pepper people in general seemed to be cool, a little layed back, kind of people and I looked forward to being part of the hot pepper community. Getting sued because I sold a few boxes of pods to some people would be worse than anything I have ever had to deal with in 27 years of growing, but of course, that hasn't happened yet. This IS a business for me, but at the same time, I want to enjoy this aspect of my business, and if I can't, I'll drop the whole thing. I can attest that growing peppers is WAY more time consuming than growing cycads, which you could not fertilize for 5 years and only water them when it rains, and they will still survive for 1500 years. Tom
 
Allot of good info here but honestly why so much worries on the legalities?
Nobody can be sued like some want to believe...
ask yourself this. Did youview and sign a contract which was provided prior to or at time of purchase?
If the answer is no then obviously no legal action can tale place against you or any other parties you may chose to give or sell YOUR property to.
With that said when my reaper starts podding I'd be more than happy to sell pods and seeds to anyone in need. And will laugh if threatened with a lawsuit sense my reaper plant I purchased come from Jim Duffy whose site also states nothing about limit of use or anything else.. nor anything mentioning the originator nor his site or anything other than a description of the product...
Really suprised at all the drama I've been seeing about this pepper its just a pepper for fucks sake... smh
 
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