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COLD PRESSED NEEM OIL

solid7 said:
 
Yeah, so that's what makes me suspicious.  Southern Ag is a big commercial chemical company.  If your clarified Neem works better than your cold pressed, IME/IMO, there's something else in there, and it might not be something that you'd normally opt to use.  That's kind of been the crux of my entire series of monologues...
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No, Southern AG does not work better, never said that. Said the Cold pressed neem oil is difficult to mix and keep in suspension and spray with good flow, spread, and have good 'sticking' properties instead of dripping right off the leafs. Its a fine balance to find the correct adjutants package that lets us do that with cold pressed. Hence my reason for mixing CP with SAG's already great adjutants package in their CN product.
 
I agree, would like to know whats in SAG adjutants package. Suppose since they call that 30% "inert" iirr, hopefully its not something negative for our plants, iirr its OMRI cert. Can tell you for sure, after using it for a couple years now, it agrees with our plants very very well as far as stress is concerned, unlike detergents and soaps or the wrong water wetters/dosage,  ime.
 
acs1 said:
I agree, would like to know whats in SAG adjutants package. Suppose since they call that 30% "inert" iirr, hopefully its not something negative for our plants, iirr its OMRI cert. Can tell you for sure, after using it for a couple years now, it agrees with our plants very very well as far as stress is concerned, unlike detergents and soaps or the wrong water wetters/dosage,  ime.
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I don't doubt that it works, lest you wouldn't use it.  I have only had problems with the soap when it got overused - but make no mistake, it did get overused, and it wasn't a good result.  That's why I typically use AzaMax, when things get really bad.  The suspension of cold pressed and the wetting agents / surfactants has been more than adequate for me to get the full benefit.  I might seek to find a better emulsifier, but short of that, I'm pretty happy with what I've got going.  If I had any complaint at all, it would be that Florida sun is very unforgiving on Neem applied without adequate time to dry/degrade.  8 hours between application and first light, is an absolute minimum for me. 
 
solid7 said:
 
 Florida sun is very unforgiving on Neem applied without adequate time to dry/degrade.  8 hours between application and first light, is an absolute minimum for me. 
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I'll take your word for it, and won't/haven't give FL sun a chance at being unforgiving. Lately been spraying right after the sun goes down but before its dark as don't like using flash lights or flood lights. Seems to work fine with the small amount of light at dusk.
 
What I've noticed is when a glob of high content oil comes out of the sprayer and covers some leafs/fruit, that glob will turn everything its on, black, next few days in the sun,, if allowed to stay on the plant, as globules will never dry like correctly emulsified evenly mixed cp neem does. 
 
 
Azadirachtin isn't the only active in neem.
That isn't even debatable.

;)

The FDA isn't reliable. Numerous cases have shown that. One former FDA researcher testified before congress that the FDA tested a certain drug and found it caused heart problems and then knowingly released the drug with the intention of later withdrawing the drug and fining the company that made it. This allowed the FDA to make far more money from fees than if they had simply not released the drug. It's part of the "pay to play" system the FDA represents.



Acs1, that is some good information there!
 
Max Nihil said:
Azadirachtin isn't the only active in neem.
That isn't even debatable.

;)

The FDA isn't reliable. Numerous cases have shown that. One former FDA researcher testified before congress that the FDA tested a certain drug and found it caused heart problems and then knowingly released the drug with the intention of later withdrawing the drug and fining the company that made it. This allowed the FDA to make far more money from fees than if they had simply not released the drug. It's part of the "pay to play" system the FDA represents.
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I'm not sure what your bent is, or why you're so emotionally invested - but you're telling me that something isn't even debatable, when it's a published bit of knowledge that ***90%(!) of the effectiveness of Neem as a pesticide, is from a SINGLE active ingredient - which is Azadirachtin.***  Again, I'm sitting in an area that is subject to hardcore infestations.  I'm not terribly interested in a 10% solution, that's only effective at the time of spray. 
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Yes, there are other substances. I have no problem with being transparent about that. Just quantify for us how much remain of each after extraction of Aza, and how effective they are in the remaining substance:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234643/
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Do we have hard studies that show effectiveness of cold pressed vs clarified?  If so, in what area, against what pests? (there is evidence to suggest that Neem works better in warm environments, like the tropics)
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You've made it clear that you are arguing from the perspective of a weed grower/user.  Great.  We're not operating on the same basis.  If you're not understanding that, then nothing is debatable.  I'm not interested in theories about what cabal is pulling the strings of the FDA.  You simply stated that "food grade" was an opinion, and I provided a counter.  Ultimately, on such matters, no minds will be changed.  And quite honestly, I have no idea how someone can argue about the safety of a product (Neem), while framing it in the context of long term health consequences of a substance (cannabis) that has as many, if not more, question marks hanging over it, with regards to side-effects and safety.  That logical disconnect was kind of a non-starter for me.
 
Ok, so I have a serious question here.

Is this toxicity from plant absorption, or people being dumb and not washing their stuff before eating?

I can definitely see there being an issue of people spraying pot with neem, not washing it off, and processing it.
 
Neem toxicity is not from a lack of washing.  Nor is there any real evidence to suggest that even eating it in trace amounts, is harmful, in the least.
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On the contrary...  If anyone is still smoking ANYTHING in the year 2020, and are obsessively worried about the effects of Neem, then I fear that a huge point has been missed.   Specifically, that lungs are for breathing air.  But when one chooses to use them otherwise, they become extremely efficient processors of whatever substances one chooses to suck into them.  Smoking is about the fastest way to get a toxin into your bloodstream, short of injecting it (I'm purposely omitting any conversation about vodka tampons or butt chugging).  Cannabis has dozens, if not hundreds of chemical constituents, which multiply (break down into free components, or become new compounds) when the weed is burned.  And that's not including whatever heavy metals, pesticides, etc, that an unscrupulous or unknowledgeable grower may have included in the grow.
 
solid7 said:
I've not had a problem with globbing.  How do you store your Neem?
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Stored in a small open top box in the same Bliss bottle it comes in, over the sink in my laundry room with its mixing Pyrex and a 1 tbs measure along side a bottle of Dr Boners soap, bottle of water wetter8,  and bottle of natural wet. My AG Southern clarified neem is stored in my patio, in a big plastic shelved garden storage unit.
 
acs1 said:
Stored in a small open top box in the same Bliss bottle it comes in, over the sink in my laundry room with its mixing Pyrex and a 1 tbs measure along side a bottle of Dr Boners soap, bottle of water wetter8,  and bottle of natural wet. My AG Southern clarified neem is stored in my patio, in a big plastic shelved garden storage unit.
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Is your laundry room indoors under AC, or is it in a garage, not under air?
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Do you emulsify with warm water, and add it to a warm water solution? (like not hot, but maybe a temp that wouldn't be desirable to drink on a hot Florida day?)
 
Yes under air.
 
I mix my cold pressed inside in laundry room sink because its something thats not as simple as pour it in and shake like the Clarified Neem or ferts, etc.
  
I spend some time mixing (in the past)using almost hot water as it seems to do the best job. Was wondering if heat might cause a reduction of the potency to cold pressed so this year been using only warm water.
 
 
As long as it's just warm, and not hot, you'll be fine.  But if your Neem is too cold, it will be harder to mix, and can mix to the consistency of snot or fish slime.
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Next time I'm in your neighborhood, maybe you could show me?
 
it's a published bit of knowledge that ***90%(!) of the effectiveness of Neem as a pesticide, is from a SINGLE active ingredient - which is Azadirachtin
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I mean honestly azadirachtin isn't even a single ingredient.

Neem is chemically complex and I strongly get the impression you may not have a strong understanding of chemistry and solubility.

Concerns with neem and cannabis isn't limited to smoking by any means and concerns with neem exist in terms of numerous edible plants.

Nearly every argument you have made denouncing neem extract is so overly simplistic that it is strange to me that you would be so aggressively arguing such a glib position.

While that doesn't bother me at all I thought it would benefit other readers to have a bit more information about neem based options as opposed to your "extract bad" argument. The extract does work well and not everybody wants to ingest a systemic insecticide.

In terms of chemistry and neuromelanin binding of various chemicals and metals many substances have cumulative effects and extremely long half lives in terms of pharmacology. This means that 5 milligrams of some substances a year for ten years can have the same impact as a single 50mg dose of the same substance.

How many long term (20+ years) studies of human ingestion of different neem based products are there?


Relax.

It's free.
 
Max Nihil said:
I mean honestly azadirachtin isn't even a single ingredient.
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Never said it was, but it IS a compound that can be, and is, isolated.  So honestly, that's a lame reply.
 
 
Max Nihil said:
Nearly every argument you have made denouncing neem extract is so overly simplistic that it is strange to me that you would be so aggressively arguing such a glib position.
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I mean, it's not like you've offered much more.  If you want to have an actual conversation, maybe try something that isn't a "hit and run" approach.  Use your words.  I love that you want to use 20 dollar words in tangential responses, but if you actually know something, then dig in.  This topic isn't just about me.  There are others here who would love to learn something, also.
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So enough bullshit.  Talk about Neem, and forget about having a pissing match with me. 
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Also, let's move on from the use of the word "glib".  You've exhausted it, already.  Crack open the thesaurus, if you have to, but let's keep it a bit more interesting, and a little less Reader's Digest-y.
 
Max Nihil said:
How many long term (20+ years) studies of human ingestion of different neem based products are there?
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I believe I made the same point.  
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I'm sure that there aren't nearly as many as there are cannabis studies.  Again, ironic that given what's known about cannabis, we're arguing about what's not known about Neem - all things being equal.
 
solid7 said:
 
...So enough bullshit.  Talk about Neem,...
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Simply stated, should I use this shit in my vegetable garden or not.....and why.
 
With edible plants I use the clarified hydrophobic extract and have found it to be extremely effective.

Many people avoid using the cold pressed oil.


Neem is chemically complex and not extremely well understood despite the chemically naive glib perspective being promoted by Solid7.

If you want to avoid ingesting an untested compound systemic insecticide that is linked to organ failure then avoid the cold pressed oil and other formulations that have a high content of azadirachtin.

If you don't care about feeding yourself and or other people an untested systemic insecticide linked to organ failure then take Solid7s advice and avoid using the clarified extract and use cold pressed oil or other formulations instead.

Yesterday I sprayed cuttings with a formulation that is 0.9% clarified hydrophobic extract of neem with 0.02% pyrethrins and 0.2% piperonyl hydroxide. I would not want to ingest this material, breathe it or get it on my skin however it works very very well and it washes off well. I use it to remove fungi and pests from cuttings of plants that perform well so I can grow them indoors and use them as mother plants and isolate them.

All of neem products work and that includes the clarified extract.
 
DownRiver said:
 
Simply stated, should I use this shit in my vegetable garden or not.....and why.
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My glib naive perspective is that cold pressed Neem is safer to use in your vegetable garden than anything else that you'd grab off the shelf at a big box store.  That being said, there are many products that we have a relative amount of confidence or faith in, using the best information that we have available AT A GIVEN TIME.  If you have new information tomorrow that strongly links Neem to something nefarious, then good sense dictates that you pay attention to said information, and potentially reverse course.  That's as honest of an answer as you will get from anyone.
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I have not seen the same mass exodus away from Neem in edible gardens, as I have in the stoner community.  But again, consider what's being grown/used, and the perspective that it's coming from.  For me, that's a bit like making a fuss about whether or not it's a good idea to eat turds that are packed with GMO corn kernels.
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Using the best information available at this time, I choose to believe that Neem is one of the best choices for an insecticide.  That being said, I'd prefer to use nothing at all.  You use whatever makes sense to you, or gives you adequate comfort in your choice.
 
Should also add to that, every case of Neem poisoning that I've been able to find, was caused by direct ingestion of the oil, by either infants or elderly adults.  One case was a 20ml dose, and there were other conditions in effect.  In most of the cases, it was reported that all symptoms went away normally.  There was no mention of long term effects. 
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841499/
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I'm not about to stop using Neem Oil on plants, based on evidence like this.  I absolutely wouldn't place any bets on what it does when it's smoked with other substances that have their own health risks.
 
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