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hot-sauce Extract Sauces are blarrrrghhhhh!

imaguitargod said:
Oh! Green Bandit! I've had one of his sauces! I like the ingredients (especially the Red Bell Peppers he uses).

I must dissagree with you on the Defcon Condition Zero however. EZ Earl and Defcon have been the cleanest tasting extracts that I've ever had. I would actually describe Condition Zero Batch #3 as "Cotton Candy-isy" in flavor, with a nice hint of hard alcohol.
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I think Amir has something new for the show this year. I know he's been refining his marinades though. I haven't tried them since last year, so when I stop by to see Amir, I'm going to have to do the toothpick test again at DEFCON! :)

I don't think I've ever had a sauce that tasted like cotton candy! :) Although there is a first for everything!

DEFCON Creator said:
I'll be gentle. LOL! ;)
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I'm curious about this new batch you are un-veiling Creator. I might have to get my hands on one of those 5mL pre-production bottles to try for myself.

This might be my last time online until I get to the Sandia. So I'll see you there! -Lars-
 
There are two different kinds of extract used these days in the making of sauces.
Plainly put, there's cheap extract and a more Cadillac version of cap extracts.
The prices are drastically different and thus makes some manufacturers use the cheaper extract to keep costs down but the heat level high.
Defcon and myself, and, I will not speak for others here, but there are other sauce makers that, use the "good stuff" when we make our sauces.
Capsaicin is capsaicin, there are of course varying volumes of cap in different peppers (habanero of course most bang for the buck) and there are also different emulsifiers in which capsaicin can exist.
In my opinion, the main reason SOME extract sauces taste like crap is the emulsifier. The cheaper extracts can use ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile or a combination thereof whereas the more expensive type of cap extract will more than likely be a purer ethanol mix than the three tiered ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile emulsifier. If I'm using the wrong lingo, someone please feel free to correct me.
Extract can be made at home by anyone that is will to take the time and care (safety first people) quite easily. You can start making your own extract sauces, like I did, and you'll see the difference between the good stuff and the cheap stuff.
It is of course easier to get your hands on the cheaper grade extracts, but the good stuff is a little harder for the general public to get.
That's my two cents.
 
Uncle Big said:
There are two different kinds of extract used these days in the making of sauces.
Plainly put, there's cheap extract and a more Cadillac version of cap extracts.
The prices are drastically different and thus makes some manufacturers use the cheaper extract to keep costs down but the heat level high.
Defcon and myself, and, I will not speak for others here, but there are other sauce makers that, use the "good stuff" when we make our sauces.
Capsaicin is capsaicin, there are of course varying volumes of cap in different peppers (habanero of course most bang for the buck) and there are also different emulsifiers in which capsaicin can exist.
In my opinion, the main reason SOME extract sauces taste like crap is the emulsifier. The cheaper extracts can use ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile or a combination thereof whereas the more expensive type of cap extract will more than likely be a purer ethanol mix than the three tiered ethanol, acetone and acetonitrile emulsifier. If I'm using the wrong lingo, someone please feel free to correct me.
Extract can be made at home by anyone that is will to take the time and care (safety first people) quite easily. You can start making your own extract sauces, like I did, and you'll see the difference between the good stuff and the cheap stuff.
It is of course easier to get your hands on the cheaper grade extracts, but the good stuff is a little harder for the general public to get.
That's my two cents.
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Now I understand why I am not a huge fan of extracts. Acetonitrile metabolizes into cyanide!!! :)

I'm curious now what the manufacturers of extract use to remove the metabolizer!! :)

Anyone know? I might have to ask at the show this weekend to see if I can get any answers.. -Lars-
 
csigi_chili_sauce said:
Now I understand why I am not a huge fan of extracts. Acetonitrile metabolizes into cyanide!!! :)

I'm curious now what the manufacturers of extract use to remove the metabolizer!! :)

Anyone know? I might have to ask at the show this weekend to see if I can get any answers.. -Lars-
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Lars,
Most extracts use some form of ethanol or gain alcohol without the extract yummy bad things in it.
Talk to Creator at the show between beers or during beers or before beers, either way chat him up, he'll give you the straight poop and probably correct anything that was wrong in my post.
He is after all, the evil little scientist.
 
Chemically speaking, it is nearly impossible to decompose acetonitrile into cyanide. In order to release a cyanide anion, you would need to generate a methyl cation...very nearly impossible, especially in vivo. Acetonitrile tastes nasty. It's a good SN2 solvent I use often in my work, and I've dealt with it enough (read: absorbed through skin) that if is was metabolized in vivo, I'd probably be dead.

To answer the other question; ethanol, acetone, and acetonitrile can all be removed (mostly) by vacuum distillation. They all from azeotropes (mixtures that can't be purified by distillation) with water which is present due to the vinegar/juice/vegetable matter. The fact that it forms an azeotrope is what makes it impossible to remove, not a lack of care by the producer. There are ways of dealing with azeotropes, but they would be cost prohibative for the food industry.
 
Uncle Big said:
Talk to Creator at the show between beers or during beers or before beers. He is after all, the evil little scientist.
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Before beers? I wasn't aware that was part of my time-space continuum. :)
 
dreamtheatervt said:
Chemically speaking, it is nearly impossible to decompose acetonitrile into cyanide.
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I don't know about that one. According to this website...

http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~russ/MSDS/acetonitrile.htm

'Acetonitrile metabolizes into cyanide over 2 to 8 hours, so symptoms or signs of toxicity may be delayed after significant exposures.'

By the way, it seems that you have a back round in chemistry.

Are you a food chemist of sorts? Or were you just really good in chemistry in school.. lol

I ask because chemistry was my WORST subject back in school! :lol: -Lars-
 
csigi_chili_sauce said:
By the way, it seems that you have a back round in chemistry.
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Uh, you could say that :lol:

I teach Synthetic Techniques in Organic Chemistry at Virginia Tech while working on my Ph.D. in organic & polymer chemistry.

As for acetonitrile metabolism, I very well could have been wrong. But quoting from the same source, "Effects of overexposure are often delayed, possibly due to the slow formation of cyanide anions in the body."

So it becomes a race between metabolizing it and simply removing it with the rest of the toxins your body generates (urination). Between the fact that there probably isn't a large amount of residual acetonitrile in extracts, only a fraction of that amount will be metabolized, and cyanide isn't a long term cummulative poison makes it safe to use extract sauces. I don't use extract sauces, but I figured I'd offer some peace of mind to those who do.
 
dreamtheatervt said:
Uh, you could say that :)

I teach Synthetic Techniques in Organic Chemistry at Virginia Tech while working on my Ph.D. in organic & polymer chemistry.

As for acetonitrile metabolism, I very well could have been wrong. But quoting from the same source, "Effects of overexposure are often delayed, possibly due to the slow formation of cyanide anions in the body."

So it becomes a race between metabolizing it and simply removing it with the rest of the toxins your body generates (urination). Between the fact that there probably isn't a large amount of residual acetonitrile in extracts, only a fraction of that amount will be metabolized, and cyanide isn't a long term cummulative poison makes it safe to use extract sauces. I don't use extract sauces, but I figured I'd offer some peace of mind to those who do.
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Awesome! Thanks for the response man. I hope that my first response didn't come across too much like a dcik.. I was just curious about the process and after doing some checking I was kind of weirded out by what I was finding. That's why I'm also very curious about DEFCONS Zero...

I know John probably won't let out any secrets, but he must be doing 'something' different to remove any chemical extract flavor from his Zero. This is out of curiosity of course. I have no plans of making any sauces with the use of extract.

So John, if you are listening, what can you tell us about your process that is different than what others are doing? Unless it's a total trade secret I would understand you not wanting to talk about what you do. ;) -Lars-
 
It's our own proprietary process. Kinda cool actually. Besides a few cold pressings and 4 different distillations, we utilize liquid CO2 to try to get more of the sugar away from our friendly capsaicin crystals. Its a completely manual process and NO machines of any kind use used to make it. It takes months to harvest the stuff, but I think what sets us apart from many of the other extracts out there is the fact we use only natural stuff to make it, unlike many extracts which use ketones and tend to have that bitter almost metallic taste. If we wanted to make 55 gallon drums of the stuff it just wouldn't be cost effective, hence the reason we only release little bottles of it a couple times per year. With the time and labor to make it, we really don't make much $ off of it, we just like to come up with really interesting packaging for it. Hell, our first releases (The Batch #1) are going for $500 now in private sales. Pretty cool.
 
Sweet...I kinda figured supercritical CO2 was the way to go, I didn't know people were using it. Just don't breathe it on John, it's harsh. I really shouldn't play with my extra dry ice...but its fun; and making CO2 clouds is better than making HCl clouds (which I have done :) )
 
It has taken quite a bit of practice using the liquid CO2, as "accidents" are VERY easy to make, and not a lot of fun.

As for gases, I prefer chlorine, it's such a pretty shade of green.
 
The Iron Tongue said:
The T-1000 from Terminator 2 comes to mind :)
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That was liquid nitrogen, which is -195 C. You can actually keep liquid CO2 at room temperature, provided it is under pressure.


Ah...Dr. Strangelove. Easily one of the 10 best movies ever made.
 
dreamtheatervt said:
That was liquid nitrogen, which is -195 C. You can actually keep liquid CO2 at room temperature, provided it is under pressure.
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Well EXCUSE ME!! :)



Dr Strangelove? Never seen it. Sounds like some odd adult movie lol.
 
DEFCON Creator said:
The BEST Kubrick movie ever made...Besides Clockwork Orange.
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Hey thanks John. So that's interesting that you make your extract much different than most others.. Kudos!

And yes, Kubrick was an effin' genius! Full Metal Jacket was a pretty good flick too! -Lars-
 
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