Planning on making a few ferments. Ibsaw in another thread some time ago that you can buy capsules that always give you a sure fire ferment? Does anyone have the name of them?
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fermenting ferment question?
- Thread starter krisman2003
- Start date
salsalady
Business Member
starters are discussed in depth in Fermenting Peppers 101
Nothing Is surefire, before you do the work do the research. Salsalady is on the money read everything in fermenting 101 tons of recipes and tips guaranteed to give you the best possible outcome. 
take plenty of pics and keep us posted. Fermenting is great fun. I use whitelab lactose works excellent. Ultimate flora was one in pill form I've see used. Hope that helps.
Cheers
take plenty of pics and keep us posted. Fermenting is great fun. I use whitelab lactose works excellent. Ultimate flora was one in pill form I've see used. Hope that helps.Cheers
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is absolutely nothing mentioned about the capsules I'm taking about in the 101 right? All the other methods I'm not really interested due to not having hooch or yogurt most of the time, but I would like something other than a wild yeast from the air start. And yes acidipholus tablets is what I was referring too. Thank you.
salsalady
Business Member
I've used Caldwells Fermentation Starter with good success. It's a "one-shot" thing like yeast. It comes in a packet, mix it with water and salt......but....
Why are you so against using the other tried and true methods and looking to use capsules? A cup of live yogurt is $1.49.....I know the starter packets I used are a LOT more expensive than that. Don't know how much the capsules cost. Hooch is a little more involved in that it's part of sour dough starter but is basically zero$. But yogurt...go to the store and buy a tub! Simple as that! You gather up the rest of the ingredients for the ferment, throw a tub of yogurt in the cart while at the market~
That said... there's a hundred ways to "skin a cat"...Get the capsules, give it a shot, take pics and let us know how it works! Reinvent the wheel, maybe you'll come up with the Best Sauce Ever. You'll never know until you try.
If you want a tried-and-true process for your first fermentation ventures, the options described in Fermenting 101 have been proven to work many times over.
Have Fun! Post Pics!
Why are you so against using the other tried and true methods and looking to use capsules? A cup of live yogurt is $1.49.....I know the starter packets I used are a LOT more expensive than that. Don't know how much the capsules cost. Hooch is a little more involved in that it's part of sour dough starter but is basically zero$. But yogurt...go to the store and buy a tub! Simple as that! You gather up the rest of the ingredients for the ferment, throw a tub of yogurt in the cart while at the market~
That said... there's a hundred ways to "skin a cat"...Get the capsules, give it a shot, take pics and let us know how it works! Reinvent the wheel, maybe you'll come up with the Best Sauce Ever. You'll never know until you try.
If you want a tried-and-true process for your first fermentation ventures, the options described in Fermenting 101 have been proven to work many times over.
Have Fun! Post Pics!
They are only 2 dollars, I don't bake bread, and I don't care for yogurt. That's all. I didn't really think it was too big of a deal that I needed to explain in depth. Sorry.
salsalady said:
I have found the yogurt starter to be kinda bleh flavor wise. I actually have been using my sauerkraut juice as starter. It was started many months ago with an acidophilus tablet. I have made gallons of pepper mash ferment this season all on that one tablet due to this. So yeah once you start i, you can feed it. And just keep using it.
salsalady
Business Member
krisman2003 said:
You don't have to "care" for yogurt as the whey is being drained off to be used in the fermentation. You're not eating the yogurt. But, I can see where people don't want to waste the remaining product when using the yogurt whey for starting a ferment. We're talking about $2 for a tablet or $1.50 for a cup of yogurt. In the end, it comes down to what you like and what you want to do.
Sorry for sounding snarky. That was not my intention. I've only done a few ferments, so definitely take the advice of those who have the experience. In the end, just like "what ingredients to use in a hot sauce"... it's up to you. Use what you want, what you have available.
Again, Have Fun!
krisman2003 said:
More information is always a good thing. Explanations and discussion helps everyone learn. IIRC Rocketman's had several posts regarding the use of probiotic capsules, and a forum search for his posts would likely lead you to the info you seek.
There are no 'sure fire' magic pills that will guarantee results imo, though the Caldwells tablets SL refers to are pretty great in my experience. Good sanitation coupled with good ingredients and a good airlock will increase your chances greatly.
Best of luck Krisman - we'd love to hear how this works out for you.
acidophillus is a subspecies? of lactobasillus. It is L. (lactobasillus) acidophillus.salsalady said:iirc- it's something about different kinds of bacteria. Lactobasillus is the kind you want to get going in the ferment, not acidophillus... or something like that...
+1 to search Rocketman's posts. Good luck and still have fun!
Found this on Wiki:
Metabolism
Many lactobacilli are unusual in that they operate using homofermentative metabolism (that is, they produce only lactic acid from sugars in contrast to heterofermentative lactobacilli which can produce either alcohol or lactic acid from sugars) and are aerotolerant despite the complete absence of a respiratory chain[citation needed]. This aerotolerance is manganese-dependent and has been explored (and explained) in Lactobacillus plantarum. Many lactobacilli do not require iron for growth and have an extremely high hydrogen peroxide tolerance.
According to metabolism, Lactobacillus species can be divided into three groups:
- Obligately homofermentative (Group I) including:
L. acidophilus, L. delbrueckii, L. helveticus, L. salivarius
So you would want one of these.
AaronTT said:
Yeah it does work, and normally works well. Only issue I have with it is consistency. Each time you do it the flavor comes out differently. This is because you catch different critters each time. If I want it consistent, and "local" I catch once, and feed/maintain it as a starter. Much in the same way you do with sourdough. Except I tend to feed it shredded carrot. But many people want a quick "easy" way to inoculate. Which is what acidophilus is good for.
Carrots as a maintainer is a good idea, and probably better than what I have done, which is use a high quality sugar to maintain any starter if its left for an extended period like during winter when the supply of fresh peppers dwindles. This probably feeds them more than just sugar. Great idea.DaQatz said:
I personally have not had too many problems with consistency as long as I use the same ingredients and temps. I believe keeping temps in the same range is another important part to keeping consistency, as some proliferate more at different temps. A lower temp seems to provide less of the beneficial yeasts and more bacteria, while the hotter temps seem to increase the yeast content. Now the times I have made it at higher temps it does change the flavor, and although still tasty, I prefer the cooler brewing. I have created a system I will have to share that can maintain an exact temp no matter if its summer or winter with very little work, and very little cost.
Wow, some great discussion.
Ok, here's what I tried and why. As OldSalty mentioned I used the Ultimate Flora, pretty good results as I started 4 and had to throw out 1 to mold, as it had the LAB I was looking for. Check it out here: http://thehotpepper.com/topic/23146-fermenting-peppers-101/?p=962479
Now here's the why, this is from a publication of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations titled, "Fermented Fruits and Vegetables. A Global Perspective." The list of LAB that is in the Ultimate Flora has a large number of what is mentioned below as well is a source of the Primary worker bee of the LAB family when it comes to Vegetable fermentation.
"Lactic acid bacteria carry out their reactions - the conversion of carbohydrate to lactic acid plus carbon dioxide and other organic acids - without the need for oxygen. They are described as microaerophilic as they do not utilise oxygen. Because of this, the changes that they effect do not cause drastic changes in the composition of the food. Some of the family are homofermentative, that is they only produce lactic acid, while others are heterofermentative and produce lactic acid plus other volatile compounds and small amounts of alcohol. Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, L. plantarum, L. caret, L. pentoaceticus, L brevis and L. thermophilus are examples of lactic acid-producing bacteria involved in food fermentations. All species of lactic acid bacteria have their own particular reactions and niches, but overall, L. plantarum – a homofermenter -produces high acidity in all vegetable fermentations and plays the major role. All lactic acid producers are non-motile gram positive rods that need complex carbohydrate substrates as a source of energy. The lactic acid they produce is effective in inhibiting the growth of other bacteria that may decompose or spoil the food. Because the whole group are referred to as ‘lactic acid bacteria’ it might appear that the reactions they carry out are very simple, with the production of one substrate. This is far from the truth. The lactic acid bacteria are a diverse group of organisms with a diverse metabolic capacity. This diversity makes them very adaptable to a range of conditions and is largely responsible for their success in acid food fermentations.
Despite their complexity, the whole basis of lactic acid fermentation centers on the ability of lactic acid bacteria to produce acid, which then inhibits the growth of other non-desirable organisms. All lactic acid producers are micro-aerophilic, that is they require small amounts of oxygen to function. Species of the genera Streptococcus and Leuconostoc produce the least acid. Next are the heterofermentative species of Lactobacillus which produce intermediate amounts of acid, followed by the Pediococcus and lastly the homofermenters of the Lactobacillus species, which produce the most acid. Homofermenters, convert sugars primarily to lactic acid, while heterofermenters produce about 50% lactic acid plus 25% acetic acid and ethyl alcohol and 25% carbon dioxide. These other compounds are important as they impart particular tastes and aromas to the final product. The heterofermentative lactobacilli produce mannitol and some species also produce dextran.
Leuconostoc mesenteroides is a bacterium associated with the sauerkraut and pickle fermentations. This organism initiates the desirable lactic acid fermentation in these products. It differs from other lactic acid species in that it can tolerate fairly high concentrations of salt and sugar (up to 50% sugar). L. mesenteroides initiates growth in vegetables more rapidly over a range of temperatures and salt concentrations than any other lactic acid bacteria. It produces carbon dioxide and acids which rapidly lower the pH and inhibit the development of undesirable micro-organisms. The carbon dioxide produced replaces the oxygen, making the environment anaerobic and suitable for the growth of subsequent species of lactobacillus. Removal of oxygen also helps to preserve the colour of vegetables and stabilises any ascorbic acid that is present."
As with all things it comes down to what gives you the end result you desired and that it is repeatable.
Cheers,
RM
Link to Article: http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm
Ok, here's what I tried and why. As OldSalty mentioned I used the Ultimate Flora, pretty good results as I started 4 and had to throw out 1 to mold, as it had the LAB I was looking for. Check it out here: http://thehotpepper.com/topic/23146-fermenting-peppers-101/?p=962479
Now here's the why, this is from a publication of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations titled, "Fermented Fruits and Vegetables. A Global Perspective." The list of LAB that is in the Ultimate Flora has a large number of what is mentioned below as well is a source of the Primary worker bee of the LAB family when it comes to Vegetable fermentation.
"Lactic acid bacteria carry out their reactions - the conversion of carbohydrate to lactic acid plus carbon dioxide and other organic acids - without the need for oxygen. They are described as microaerophilic as they do not utilise oxygen. Because of this, the changes that they effect do not cause drastic changes in the composition of the food. Some of the family are homofermentative, that is they only produce lactic acid, while others are heterofermentative and produce lactic acid plus other volatile compounds and small amounts of alcohol. Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, L. plantarum, L. caret, L. pentoaceticus, L brevis and L. thermophilus are examples of lactic acid-producing bacteria involved in food fermentations. All species of lactic acid bacteria have their own particular reactions and niches, but overall, L. plantarum – a homofermenter -produces high acidity in all vegetable fermentations and plays the major role. All lactic acid producers are non-motile gram positive rods that need complex carbohydrate substrates as a source of energy. The lactic acid they produce is effective in inhibiting the growth of other bacteria that may decompose or spoil the food. Because the whole group are referred to as ‘lactic acid bacteria’ it might appear that the reactions they carry out are very simple, with the production of one substrate. This is far from the truth. The lactic acid bacteria are a diverse group of organisms with a diverse metabolic capacity. This diversity makes them very adaptable to a range of conditions and is largely responsible for their success in acid food fermentations.
Despite their complexity, the whole basis of lactic acid fermentation centers on the ability of lactic acid bacteria to produce acid, which then inhibits the growth of other non-desirable organisms. All lactic acid producers are micro-aerophilic, that is they require small amounts of oxygen to function. Species of the genera Streptococcus and Leuconostoc produce the least acid. Next are the heterofermentative species of Lactobacillus which produce intermediate amounts of acid, followed by the Pediococcus and lastly the homofermenters of the Lactobacillus species, which produce the most acid. Homofermenters, convert sugars primarily to lactic acid, while heterofermenters produce about 50% lactic acid plus 25% acetic acid and ethyl alcohol and 25% carbon dioxide. These other compounds are important as they impart particular tastes and aromas to the final product. The heterofermentative lactobacilli produce mannitol and some species also produce dextran.
Leuconostoc mesenteroides is a bacterium associated with the sauerkraut and pickle fermentations. This organism initiates the desirable lactic acid fermentation in these products. It differs from other lactic acid species in that it can tolerate fairly high concentrations of salt and sugar (up to 50% sugar). L. mesenteroides initiates growth in vegetables more rapidly over a range of temperatures and salt concentrations than any other lactic acid bacteria. It produces carbon dioxide and acids which rapidly lower the pH and inhibit the development of undesirable micro-organisms. The carbon dioxide produced replaces the oxygen, making the environment anaerobic and suitable for the growth of subsequent species of lactobacillus. Removal of oxygen also helps to preserve the colour of vegetables and stabilises any ascorbic acid that is present."
As with all things it comes down to what gives you the end result you desired and that it is repeatable.
Cheers,
RM
Link to Article: http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm
Downriver
Extreme Member
I'm not sold on using Acidophillus in a closed (airlock) environment. I'm thinking that, with the lack of carbon dioxide production, the oxygen is not displaced and an anaerobic environment is not created. Nothing like a little flatulence to clear the air. 
Anyway, I always have a batch of saurkraut and/or kimchi going and use them for starter. Works every time.
I looked at Ultimate Flora, but that stuff is pricey! I'll stick w/ kraut juice.
Great link RM.
Anyway, I always have a batch of saurkraut and/or kimchi going and use them for starter. Works every time.
I looked at Ultimate Flora, but that stuff is pricey! I'll stick w/ kraut juice.
Great link RM.
DR, thing is if you were to look at the LAB in the Kraut juice you'd most likely find a similar LAB profile. More similar that what we'd get using whey. It really doesn't matter where you get the LAB from, the point is that these are our little friends that help us do what we do.