Hi, I'm hoping for a bit of advice. I've grown basil in a DWC system with hydroton before and found it pretty easy and low maintenance, but this is my first time growing peppers. I've started a couple of varieties in my basement using a small ebb and flow system and rockwool. I'm wondering what people's opinions are growing in an ebb and flow system vs. DWC and what medium is best. I'm thinking about using DWC with hydroton because I think it might allow for me to use a bigger reservoir for the roots. Also, I'm wondering if rockwool might get to water logged and maybe only holds moisture and not necessarily nutrients. My rockwool is already starting to show signs of mold after three weeks and I'm thinking a DWC with hydroton might make it easier to combat mold and pH fluctuations. I've many more questions, but I think I'll save them for another day. I might be overthinking all of this, but its my first time seriously growing chili peppers and I want to do it the best I can. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Hydro advice needed: DWC vs. Ebb and Flow/Hydroton vs. Rockwool
- Thread starter Juice404
- Start date
There is some good advice on this site, as well as some good references at http://www.agrisk.umn.edu/cache/arl01481.htm#gh_peppers. I particularly like the Alberta publications. I have grown in a variety of hydroponic styles; much of your choice of style will be based on your particular circumstances. In the end, I've elected to grow mostly in a peat based mix with perlite, wood chips, worm castings and other goodies. Some of the fancier systems did give me some very outstanding plants, but they were much more work to maintain than my current dripper fed plants.
Renais
Renais
I dont like DWC for chilies, seems to hard to get enough oxygen to them. Once I changed over to something more like nft and just running nutrients through the gravel, I had much healthier plants and they actually hung onto the flowers.
DWC can make a very big and decently healthy plant but it seems harder to get them to hang onto flowers.
20ltr bucket full of expanded clay with a drain to the reservoir is easy, just pump nutrients into your 20ltr bucket every couple of hours and it drains out by gravity back into your reservoir.
DWC can make a very big and decently healthy plant but it seems harder to get them to hang onto flowers.
20ltr bucket full of expanded clay with a drain to the reservoir is easy, just pump nutrients into your 20ltr bucket every couple of hours and it drains out by gravity back into your reservoir.
Root Spa's for me.
Big enough air pump and no worries getting oxy to the roots.
PH perfect nutes, and it's pretty much set it and forget it, with occasional flush and refill according to your preferred schedule.
I tend to let is run a couple months, rather than a couple weeks before flushing.
IMHO, the couple weeks instructions to flush is just to sell you more nutes,
Big enough air pump and no worries getting oxy to the roots.
PH perfect nutes, and it's pretty much set it and forget it, with occasional flush and refill according to your preferred schedule.
I tend to let is run a couple months, rather than a couple weeks before flushing.
IMHO, the couple weeks instructions to flush is just to sell you more nutes,
So... Thats one for ebb and flow and one for DWC. I had heard about problems with blooms dropping off with DWC, but I've also seen videos of other's setups where they have grown productive peppers in DWC. I'm wondering if it depends on the variety of pepper. One of the varieties I'm growing is from the Amazon, but the other is from an arid place.
I'm also wondering if a lot of people actually losing their blooms over too much Nitrogen.
There just seems to be so much conflicting info out there. I'm leaning towards flood and drain, but I just might have to give both systems a try.
I'm also wondering if a lot of people actually losing their blooms over too much Nitrogen.
There just seems to be so much conflicting info out there. I'm leaning towards flood and drain, but I just might have to give both systems a try.
First season hydro for me here. I'm trialing both systems you mentioned. So far the DWC is producing much more plant vegetative growth over the ebb/flow (mine are still seedlings).
Its not a true comparison as I'm using three different peppers in the three systems (1 x DWC and 2 x E/F).
What I will say is that at this early stage, all three are showing much faster growth than my soil plants... I'm not an experienced grower tho, so this does not necessarily mean much!
What I liked most is that the hydro has corrected some lockout issues I was having for these plants in the soil without any effort. If things progress like this, next years grow will be 80-90% hydro with a couple of soil pots as opposed to all soil like last year.
Its not a true comparison as I'm using three different peppers in the three systems (1 x DWC and 2 x E/F).
What I will say is that at this early stage, all three are showing much faster growth than my soil plants... I'm not an experienced grower tho, so this does not necessarily mean much!
What I liked most is that the hydro has corrected some lockout issues I was having for these plants in the soil without any effort. If things progress like this, next years grow will be 80-90% hydro with a couple of soil pots as opposed to all soil like last year.
I'd be happy to hear a status report in the future rainman. Are you doing the hydro indoor or outdoor. I ended up making a DWC box with a 40L tote and sticking two plants (can't remember if they are 3 or 4 weeks from seed) in it. I was going to make another tote with a drip down system, but the hose just sprayed everywhere. I ended up just putting it inside a 106L tote box and set it every 2 hours to spray the netpots from underneath for 15 minutes. I pulled the seedlings out of the rockwool the best that I could and put them in hydroton. They are all showing signs of happiness. Now I just have to build a DIY light fixture and wait.
Juice404 said:
My hydro is outdoors in hydroton . The price of electricity in Western Australia is pretty high (25c/kWh) and we have a long season with about 9 months of sun, so seemed a natural choice. We just had a 44C day that I was not prepared for and I lost a few vegies... some chilies took a beating in the soil, so I will move them to hydro and see if they recover.
I've spent the last couple of days increasing my hydro capacity from 3 modules to 9 modules. Took a bit of pissing about to get it all just so, but I'm 80% there. Got 4 plants in now, with the 5th and 6th going in tomorrow. I'll leave 3 modules empty until next year as I don't have enough plants of similar size to run them all from the same reservoir.
I will let you know how things turn out over the coming weeks. I will be following this thread, so keep it updated - we can learn a lot from each other I expect.
This will be my first year at growing peppers in DWC. I grew some 6+ foot tall Tomatoes last year with DWC. The plants were beautiful with lots of flowers but only a few held on to fruit. I always wondered if I should have cut back on the extra nitrogen, once the plant started to flower. I was using Bobby @MHPGardener's recipe with the added Calcium Nitrate.
I really enjoy experimenting with different growing methods. This year I plan on trying peppers in a DWC (5gallon Bucket with Air Stone) as well as the Kratky method, so Rainman and Juice please keep the thread updated.
I really enjoy experimenting with different growing methods. This year I plan on trying peppers in a DWC (5gallon Bucket with Air Stone) as well as the Kratky method, so Rainman and Juice please keep the thread updated.
Yup.THECHRISE said:
I let them get almost empty, twice refill with nutes, once with water only (semi flush).
2 or 3 cycles of that till plants show signs of stress.
Full flush, repeat.
Plants in small dirt pots (and rootbound by design) get alternating nutes and water.
Same nute mix as hydro.
A better method would be to keep topped up till ph and/or ppm gets out of recommended range, then flush and refill.
With my water and nutes, I am aproximating by experience.
I.E. I have done the measuring, and by experience my scheme works for my conditions.
Different nutes and water quality will require different scheme.
Keep a log of your first couple seasons, measure at least weekly, and soon you won't need to keep track of every little detail.
And of course, the plants will let you know when something is wrong.
First transplant into the net pot----full to the top of the media.
Because my transplanting scheme has few (if any) roots extending below the pot.
Level just below the pot thereafter.
"Semi flush" because a full flush requires a drain and fill, removing the bits that inevitably collect at the bottom of the pot.
I.E.---I drain, rinse a bit with the plug open, then refill on a full flush.
As I let my peppers stay in hydro for a year or more, for a full flush in warm weather I actually raise the net pot a bit and hose off the roots and bottom of the bucket.
Outside, of course.
A full flush in annual plants is done prior to final harvest and chopping them down.
Peppers can last for many years, and the bottom of the DWC can get fairly mucky.
For me, letting the level fall encourages the roots to stretch to the point that when ready to go into dirt at the end of the hydro cycle, the bucket is one big rootball.
Because my transplanting scheme has few (if any) roots extending below the pot.
Level just below the pot thereafter.
"Semi flush" because a full flush requires a drain and fill, removing the bits that inevitably collect at the bottom of the pot.
I.E.---I drain, rinse a bit with the plug open, then refill on a full flush.
As I let my peppers stay in hydro for a year or more, for a full flush in warm weather I actually raise the net pot a bit and hose off the roots and bottom of the bucket.
Outside, of course.
A full flush in annual plants is done prior to final harvest and chopping them down.
Peppers can last for many years, and the bottom of the DWC can get fairly mucky.
For me, letting the level fall encourages the roots to stretch to the point that when ready to go into dirt at the end of the hydro cycle, the bucket is one big rootball.
Ah gotcha. I didn't realize the bottom will get "mucky" and that a full flush will clean it all out.
Thanks for the clarification and also for tip about rinsing the roots a little too.
I will mostly be transplanting to hydro from soil, so I have similar issues regarding roots below the net pot at first, so I will also try filling it a little higher next time, rather than the periodic top watering I did this time around.
Thanks for the clarification and also for tip about rinsing the roots a little too.
I will mostly be transplanting to hydro from soil, so I have similar issues regarding roots below the net pot at first, so I will also try filling it a little higher next time, rather than the periodic top watering I did this time around.
Juice404 said:
So I wish I took a photo of the initial transplanted plants that went from soil to DWC and Ebb/Flow, so you could see the differences.
What I'm noticing is DWC seems to be really good for stimulating massive root growth phase very quickly, followed by a growth spurt phase whereas Ebb/Flow seems to be more a case of steady root growth and steady plant growth (both phases at the same time).
All up its too early to tell, but I'm leaning more towards the Ebb/Flow as a more efficient method for me personally. I'm seeing a much slower rise in pH with Ebb/Flow. Because I grow outdoors, DWC means the reservoir is outside too so gets quite warm (could this be the quicker rise in pH?) whereas my Ebb/Flow has the reservoir in a garage, so it stays cooler.
Here's a couple of photos of my set-up in case you were interested:
Bear in mind that these plants were as small as the ones on either end of the line (in the above photo) and nearly died in a mini 40C heat wave. The below is a closer shot and shows how nice they have rebounded in about 3 weeks:
There as some fert burns on the right hand side of the three, but as they all have the same reservoir, I just have to wait for it to grow out of it, which the other two did.
How's your system going Juice404, is it moving along nicely?
Thanks for sharing Rainman. I would have liked to have responded earlier, but its been a super busy week. I love seeing how other people's grows are going. I saw some of your photos on Photobucket as well. Are all those white pots flood and drain as well? Also, How old are those plants?
Probably, especially with a smaller resevoir. The only other time I've grown hydroponics was indoor. We would leave our windows closed in the summer while leaving town for the weekend and it would be stiffling hot in the apartment. I would check the pH as soon as we got home and the pH would be up a little, but no more than .2 I use phosphoric acid for pH down, which seems super stable.
My system here is going well... I think... kind of. I've just moved back to Canada, but before that my wife and I were traveling in Central and South America. One of the hostels we stayed in in the Ecuadorian Amazon had these amazing chili plants that were as tall as I am and nearly as wide as they were tall. The pods were delicious, so I brought sent some of the seeds home. I've been trying to figure out what it is, but am not certain. I think it might be Oro de Ecuador. A month later, I found a chili plant growing along a path in the Galapagos Islands and sent some of those seeds home as well. I'm staying at my fathers place until I can find work (which is taking longer than I thought). I couldn't really wait to see if the seeds would germinate, and in mid-november put some in papertowels in a propegator on a heat mat, and some in rockwool. The ones in paper towels seemed to germinate faster. Some took two weeks, some three. I didn't want to germinate too many, since I don't have a home yet. Once the seedlings were big enough, I put them in a mini flood drain system. I have a friend who is a hoarder and had a bunch of pumps and growlights. I'm hoping to keep the plants alive long enough until I can put them outside.
This is what the seeds looked like Dec 15th
I was concerned about the rockwool would retain too much water for the chilis and stunt their growth, especially for the ones from the Galapagos, since it is so dry there. So I put some in a DWC system, and some in a large tote with sprayers inside that were shooting water at the bottom of the netpots. Heres a picture from Jan. 4th.
It seemed like a nifty system, and the plants were liking it. Right away, the plants in both systems turned a deeper green. But, the sprayer system had two problems. I couldn't get a good seal on the lid, and water would slowly drip all over the carpet. The other problem was that it is in the room where I sleep, and would wake me up every 2 hours when the pumps went into action. I had to get rid of that box, so I build another flood drain with two 38L tote boxes stacked ontop of each other. That was working great... until the pump died. I had another pump handy, but it wasn't pushing enough water to flood the tote box...so, I drilled some holes in a hose and made a make shift drip line. In less than a month, I went from flood and drain, to a kind of aeroponics, back to flood and drain, and then to a top drip system. I haven't had any problems with the DWC.
I couldn't believe how fast the roots exploded in the DWC in such a short period of time, but the plants are pretty the same hight in both systems. I don't know if its just a coincidence, but I have two plants that are growing flower buds (one of each of the two varieties) and they are both in the flood/drain/top drip box. I had been using some nutrients that I had bought while living in Korea, and after using google translate, realized they were pretty high in nitrogen. I figured it might be a good idea to add some bloom phase nutrients into the mix. I'm not sure it that triggered the buds. The other thing is, and this could also be a coincidence, once I added the bloom nutrient, there was a ton of new growth coming from the entire stem.
I have been having some problems with the unknown amazon chilis. The new growth came out yellow with green veins. They are also growing much, much more slowly than the other variety. I thought it might be nutrient lock. I had dropped my pH tester into the resevoir and killed it, then ordered another $15 Chinese one, which came broken. When I finally got another, it was reading 6.0. I don't know if it was shocked by the changes in systems, or if its because its too cold. BTW its -16C and snowy here. I did find a good chart that explains different deficiencies in plants, and am thinking some CalMag and a heater in the resevoir might do the trick. Perhaps you might have some insight. Heres a pic. Sorry, my good camera was destroyed on our trip.
The bigger ones are from the Galapagos, and the smaller, yellower ones are from the Amazon. The ones in the DWC have much better colour.
I've been looking into getting a couple of 100w LEDs, which I'm hoping will speed things up. They seem to be making the LEDs better and cheaper these days... but that will have to wait until I find work to pay for them. At the moment, I'm using sunblaster CFL bulbs. Once box is getting about 5000 Lumens and the other is only about 3400 Lumens. Even though they are only covering a small surface area, I'm pretty sure it isn't enough for fruiting. The next couple of weeks should be interesting.
I think its too early for me to tell which system I like better. I can definitely say that the top drip and DWC are better for sleeping next to.
I couldn't resist ordering new seeds from Pepperlover. Now I have 15 varieties in the propegator and no idea what I'm going to do with them. I hope it ends up being a short winter.
Probably, especially with a smaller resevoir. The only other time I've grown hydroponics was indoor. We would leave our windows closed in the summer while leaving town for the weekend and it would be stiffling hot in the apartment. I would check the pH as soon as we got home and the pH would be up a little, but no more than .2 I use phosphoric acid for pH down, which seems super stable.
My system here is going well... I think... kind of. I've just moved back to Canada, but before that my wife and I were traveling in Central and South America. One of the hostels we stayed in in the Ecuadorian Amazon had these amazing chili plants that were as tall as I am and nearly as wide as they were tall. The pods were delicious, so I brought sent some of the seeds home. I've been trying to figure out what it is, but am not certain. I think it might be Oro de Ecuador. A month later, I found a chili plant growing along a path in the Galapagos Islands and sent some of those seeds home as well. I'm staying at my fathers place until I can find work (which is taking longer than I thought). I couldn't really wait to see if the seeds would germinate, and in mid-november put some in papertowels in a propegator on a heat mat, and some in rockwool. The ones in paper towels seemed to germinate faster. Some took two weeks, some three. I didn't want to germinate too many, since I don't have a home yet. Once the seedlings were big enough, I put them in a mini flood drain system. I have a friend who is a hoarder and had a bunch of pumps and growlights. I'm hoping to keep the plants alive long enough until I can put them outside.
This is what the seeds looked like Dec 15th
I was concerned about the rockwool would retain too much water for the chilis and stunt their growth, especially for the ones from the Galapagos, since it is so dry there. So I put some in a DWC system, and some in a large tote with sprayers inside that were shooting water at the bottom of the netpots. Heres a picture from Jan. 4th.
It seemed like a nifty system, and the plants were liking it. Right away, the plants in both systems turned a deeper green. But, the sprayer system had two problems. I couldn't get a good seal on the lid, and water would slowly drip all over the carpet. The other problem was that it is in the room where I sleep, and would wake me up every 2 hours when the pumps went into action. I had to get rid of that box, so I build another flood drain with two 38L tote boxes stacked ontop of each other. That was working great... until the pump died. I had another pump handy, but it wasn't pushing enough water to flood the tote box...so, I drilled some holes in a hose and made a make shift drip line. In less than a month, I went from flood and drain, to a kind of aeroponics, back to flood and drain, and then to a top drip system. I haven't had any problems with the DWC.
I couldn't believe how fast the roots exploded in the DWC in such a short period of time, but the plants are pretty the same hight in both systems. I don't know if its just a coincidence, but I have two plants that are growing flower buds (one of each of the two varieties) and they are both in the flood/drain/top drip box. I had been using some nutrients that I had bought while living in Korea, and after using google translate, realized they were pretty high in nitrogen. I figured it might be a good idea to add some bloom phase nutrients into the mix. I'm not sure it that triggered the buds. The other thing is, and this could also be a coincidence, once I added the bloom nutrient, there was a ton of new growth coming from the entire stem.
I have been having some problems with the unknown amazon chilis. The new growth came out yellow with green veins. They are also growing much, much more slowly than the other variety. I thought it might be nutrient lock. I had dropped my pH tester into the resevoir and killed it, then ordered another $15 Chinese one, which came broken. When I finally got another, it was reading 6.0. I don't know if it was shocked by the changes in systems, or if its because its too cold. BTW its -16C and snowy here. I did find a good chart that explains different deficiencies in plants, and am thinking some CalMag and a heater in the resevoir might do the trick. Perhaps you might have some insight. Heres a pic. Sorry, my good camera was destroyed on our trip.
The bigger ones are from the Galapagos, and the smaller, yellower ones are from the Amazon. The ones in the DWC have much better colour.
I've been looking into getting a couple of 100w LEDs, which I'm hoping will speed things up. They seem to be making the LEDs better and cheaper these days... but that will have to wait until I find work to pay for them. At the moment, I'm using sunblaster CFL bulbs. Once box is getting about 5000 Lumens and the other is only about 3400 Lumens. Even though they are only covering a small surface area, I'm pretty sure it isn't enough for fruiting. The next couple of weeks should be interesting.
I think its too early for me to tell which system I like better. I can definitely say that the top drip and DWC are better for sleeping next to.
I couldn't resist ordering new seeds from Pepperlover. Now I have 15 varieties in the propegator and no idea what I'm going to do with them. I hope it ends up being a short winter.
Juice404 - interesting read, especially all the exotic peppers you have been finding on your travels! I also like seeing peoples DIY set-ups and might try your two stacked tote idea next year.
I hear what you mean regarding the pump noise - that would drive me nuts after a while. I can hear my pumps from the garden (about 20 m away) when I go to the toilet in the night, so the pump in the same room would be mad!
In answer to your questions:
1. I'm not sure what could be causing the yellowing as I'm too new to hydro, but my guess would be a lockout. You'll need someone else to help diagnose that. Maybe hit it with some Cal/Mag?
2. All my white pots have been converted to ebb/flow, except the far right in the top photo which is a small DWC. The plant in it was originally in soil and got severely damaged in a heat wave (turned to sticks), but has a few leaves now, although its actually stalled a little.
3. Its hard to estimate the age of my plants, as I haven't been as diligent as I was planning to be and neglected my glog entirely. Also, the plants were all in soil at the start, but had a few problems with the raised bed mix (too compact and not very free draining) and then a snap mini heat wave that kinda buggered up my grow somewhat.
However, to get an idea on the growth rate, the following plant was in DWC for a couple of days (photo was taken on the 17 December 2014), four days before it went into ebb/flow.
The same plant is the one in the middle of the following photo after 35 days.
Latest update: I left my reservoir go for three weeks and found some severely distorted new growth coming through. At first i though it was possible aphids or mites, but I am thinking it may have been a dirty reservoir. Since I've flushed it, the new growth is coming through more normal, albeit a little "bubbly" from too high ppm. I've got some sulfur to hand just in case it looks like mites are settling in.
I have a few flowers on the middle plant now, but so far none have set pods. We are going through changable weather severe heat and storms, so I'm just trying to nurse them until the weather settle down for a nice warm autumn, which is when our season usually reaps the rewards.
I hear what you mean regarding the pump noise - that would drive me nuts after a while. I can hear my pumps from the garden (about 20 m away) when I go to the toilet in the night, so the pump in the same room would be mad!
In answer to your questions:
1. I'm not sure what could be causing the yellowing as I'm too new to hydro, but my guess would be a lockout. You'll need someone else to help diagnose that. Maybe hit it with some Cal/Mag?
2. All my white pots have been converted to ebb/flow, except the far right in the top photo which is a small DWC. The plant in it was originally in soil and got severely damaged in a heat wave (turned to sticks), but has a few leaves now, although its actually stalled a little.
3. Its hard to estimate the age of my plants, as I haven't been as diligent as I was planning to be and neglected my glog entirely. Also, the plants were all in soil at the start, but had a few problems with the raised bed mix (too compact and not very free draining) and then a snap mini heat wave that kinda buggered up my grow somewhat.
However, to get an idea on the growth rate, the following plant was in DWC for a couple of days (photo was taken on the 17 December 2014), four days before it went into ebb/flow.
The same plant is the one in the middle of the following photo after 35 days.
Latest update: I left my reservoir go for three weeks and found some severely distorted new growth coming through. At first i though it was possible aphids or mites, but I am thinking it may have been a dirty reservoir. Since I've flushed it, the new growth is coming through more normal, albeit a little "bubbly" from too high ppm. I've got some sulfur to hand just in case it looks like mites are settling in.
I have a few flowers on the middle plant now, but so far none have set pods. We are going through changable weather severe heat and storms, so I'm just trying to nurse them until the weather settle down for a nice warm autumn, which is when our season usually reaps the rewards.
I want to try dutch buckets with perlite like mhpgardener.
One resivour for a row of plants is easy to service and air always on the roots. Obviously proven working.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkcbhi9jASF-ZoPDR1bzgwFYrJw7pSaRT
One resivour for a row of plants is easy to service and air always on the roots. Obviously proven working.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkcbhi9jASF-ZoPDR1bzgwFYrJw7pSaRT
I had the yellow green vein leaves as well in the beginning. For me it was a Cal mag issue. I use rain water which does not have calcium like tap water does. It cleared it right up. My plants have very dark green leaves.
I too was using a digital ph tester. Honestly I was getting very frustrated not knowing if it was accurate or not. I just went to the drops which in my opinion is much better. Sure it takes a little longer but at least I can sleep knowing for sure what my ph is at.
The heater should do you well. I set mine to 68f. They say maximum nutrient intake is at 67f.
U should check out my glog if u get a chance.
I too was using a digital ph tester. Honestly I was getting very frustrated not knowing if it was accurate or not. I just went to the drops which in my opinion is much better. Sure it takes a little longer but at least I can sleep knowing for sure what my ph is at.
The heater should do you well. I set mine to 68f. They say maximum nutrient intake is at 67f.
U should check out my glog if u get a chance.