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misc It's not a pod! FFS
- Thread starter RobStar
- Start date
Well, being plural, I believe most wold presume I meant Capsicum.Piper or Capsicum?
Had I said, for example 'I have some pepper', I believe that would be interpreted as black pepper (piper niger), which is a drupe, not a berry.
HellfireFarm
eXtreme Business
The spelling "chile" is entered into the 1983 congressional record by a New Mexico senator. Granted he was specifically referring to NM chiles, but that's my heritage so I'm sticking by it. The other spellings refer to the stew made from chiles. Or people who don't know chile. 
HellfireFarm
eXtreme Business
But what happened when you crossed them?Piper or Capsicum?
MarcV
eXtreme
Pipricum?
When was this renamed and how many times? CARDI used 7 POD going back nearly two decades and that is who I trusted over some generic tale. Maybe they were the first to rename it? I have never seen a discussion on that,only on which was proper.They obviously didn’t get Paul Boslsnd’s memo on Capsicum fruits being berries.then the 7 pot chili pepper renamed "7 pod" must really piss you off!in Italy we simply call them fruits; the terms pod or berry would sound strange
Taxonomy,and I will say Capsicum taxonomy specifically,has silly laws. That is the hill I am willing to die on. You have wild species named at the varietal level named after the domesticate,ie. Capsicum annuum var annuum.
I would hold institutions or the legends and seed vendors feet to the flames before Joe six pack burning his friends up at the barbecue.
Taxonomy needs laws. The law of earliest name is one. It doesn't matter how stupid the name is, if that was first it's what stays. Early taxonomists often had no idea where a plant came from or how it grew in the wild. Often they'd describe species based on specimens grown in greenhouses that looked very little like the wild counterpart. Or they would describe it from a drawing/painting - which had been copied over and over by subsequent artists who often added their own embellishments - just Google historical drawings of giraffes and you'll get the picture (no pun intended).
Now. As for Capsicum annuum var. annuum. It was named and described from cultivated specimens in Europe. The taxonomist had never seen it in the wild and no idea that it was a perennial that underwent dormancy - hence belief that it was an annual. Nor did they know that what they were looking at was actually a cultivated variety and not the natural state.
It is the nominate variety. It was not named as such to start with - it was just Capsicum annuum. However the variety glabriusculum was described for the "wild" version with small flowers, crook-necked pedicels and erect fruits. Now C. annuum (the nominate) had to be have variety annuum appended so as to differentiate it. Whenever you create/describe a variety of the nominate you automatically create the nominate variety by default.
Now. As for Capsicum annuum var. annuum. It was named and described from cultivated specimens in Europe. The taxonomist had never seen it in the wild and no idea that it was a perennial that underwent dormancy - hence belief that it was an annual. Nor did they know that what they were looking at was actually a cultivated variety and not the natural state.
It is the nominate variety. It was not named as such to start with - it was just Capsicum annuum. However the variety glabriusculum was described for the "wild" version with small flowers, crook-necked pedicels and erect fruits. Now C. annuum (the nominate) had to be have variety annuum appended so as to differentiate it. Whenever you create/describe a variety of the nominate you automatically create the nominate variety by default.
Maybe you're right, or maybe... CARDI calls peppers "pods"
It's probably too late today to understand who started calling it pot/pod. The landraces are supposed to predate the CARDI and were probably already called by a popular name. But what I think is: if "7 pot" makes sense (1 pepper for 7 pots), I can't think of a sense for "7 pod", why call it in that way?I am aware of how these things work. We can keep rubbing sticks together to make fire,too? I understand the laws,they are still silly and primitive. As is the practice of using pressed plants and drawings.
It was some years back when we had discussions about the purple cabai frutescens thingy….. I sent heaps of photos to a couple of the leading taxonomists in this field,(both have Capsicum named after them) and they said being handcuffed looking at pressed plants they would have to identify it as C.frutescens. Furthermore, they had difficulties differentiating between many annuum and frutescens and were left to make decisions based on locality. Terrible way to operate.
The wild species and the domesticate should be in the same species and be separated at the formal level of subspecies rather than variety. Just an opinion.
Maybe you're right, or maybe... CARDI calls peppers "pods"
What is a landrace? Is the 7 Pot/Pod a landrace or hybrid of the moruga red? And to go with my original question..would it be considered a landrace now?
I can’t answer why CARDI calls it 7 Pod but they do. Does that carry weight over a farmer giving it the name 7 Pot? I understand your opinion and it makes more sense to be honest. The genesis of the 7 has to come from something and the stew theory is the only good answer.
Just about every landrace Capsicum from South America has some generic name given to it by European or North American travelers. And we can feel comfortable saying the 7Pot/Pod confusion pales in comparison to the idiocracy involved in the names given to superhots now.
I believe Herman Adams is deceased now but I think an email to CARDI would still generate some sort of answer or lead to this debate.
Just the tip of the iceberg. There were other examples in the compendium that were changed and many left alone. I wish laws in this country were so easily manipulated.the history of C. rabenii/praetermissum is another example of "bouncing names" (source)
I vote we call ALL botanical berries berries - so squash, cucumber, tomato, peppers, etc... Petition grocery stores to categorize them correctly. (That also means that strawberries are not berries, just call them strawfruit.)
Although my son does call tepins "danger berries"
And it's chilE!
Force your neurosis on everyone! Joking aside,I think we are seeing this the same way. Stand up against shady people in this community but leave the thousands of people just trying to enjoy a hobby alone.
The word chili to my in-laws from Micronesia means penis. So when they hear chilihead it is quite amusing. I think Aussies have the solution…just call everything Capsicum or Capsi.
.................. I think Aussies have the solution…just call everything Capsicum or Capsi.
Capsicum are what is generally refer to on here as bell peppers
Peppers are called chillies
@Pr0digal_son I am gobsmacked by your ignorance of botanical naming conventions. I can only imagine you new system - a system without type specimens so we have nothing to compare to and no doubt polynomials where every minor variation will become a variety and form - like the cactus taxonomy where a minor colour form (from within a larger continuous population) became "forma" - hence Genus species subspecies variety form.
You are a typical horticulturist "taxonomist" - every tiny variation viewed in isolation and considered a new taxon. Your lack of understanding of how species are named and described is apparent. I strongly suggest you visit a herbarium and have a reputable botanist explain it to you - not some crackpot horticulturist "taxonomist".
I wish you luck on your lonely hilltop from where you are going to revolutionise the botanical naming convention and try and take it back to the mess it was.
@The Hot Pepper could you please lock this thread once @Pr0digal_son has had the right of reply as it has become a shit show. Thanks
Pepper pod is only wrong in a strict botanical sense, but not necessarily in other forms of language usage. The called-for "correction" of pod > berry based on botanical conventions is overzealous and unwarranted, especially because "pod" is a perfectly acceptable term to describe chile in common language.
I posted an image of the OED, it should have rung a bell, but I understand that it's easier to discredit the education system. I find peppers called pods in works from the 18th and 19th century, so the "error" seems to be of age already. Yet, the meaning of pod is "capsule", and the 18th century version of the new Royal English dictionary describes it as the "capsule or case of seeds". A poppy pod is just that, a pod with seeds...
People have historically and traditionally named new things after other things or concepts they were familiar with, or in which they saw some resemblance or analogy, but a British television is not truly a box, chile is not pepper, a podcast does not cast capsules, a "hangmat" (hammock) is not a hanging carpet, true pussy cries miaow miaow, and this list just goes on and on because people have historically and traditionally named new things after other things or concepts they were familiar with, or in which they saw some resemblance or analogy. To me, it looks like botanists used an existing term and restricted its application to a specific botanical description, and I honestly don't see why non-botanists should bother and adopt botanical lingo in their day-to-day speech when a functional vocabulary already exists (and very likely predates the botanical rendering of the term).
Please don't @The Hot Pepper , because "it's not what I like to read" and "shit show" should not be treated as synonyms.
PS: count the number of pods in The Story of Chile Peppers (NMSU, but yes the education system...).
I posted an image of the OED, it should have rung a bell, but I understand that it's easier to discredit the education system. I find peppers called pods in works from the 18th and 19th century, so the "error" seems to be of age already. Yet, the meaning of pod is "capsule", and the 18th century version of the new Royal English dictionary describes it as the "capsule or case of seeds". A poppy pod is just that, a pod with seeds...
People have historically and traditionally named new things after other things or concepts they were familiar with, or in which they saw some resemblance or analogy, but a British television is not truly a box, chile is not pepper, a podcast does not cast capsules, a "hangmat" (hammock) is not a hanging carpet, true pussy cries miaow miaow, and this list just goes on and on because people have historically and traditionally named new things after other things or concepts they were familiar with, or in which they saw some resemblance or analogy. To me, it looks like botanists used an existing term and restricted its application to a specific botanical description, and I honestly don't see why non-botanists should bother and adopt botanical lingo in their day-to-day speech when a functional vocabulary already exists (and very likely predates the botanical rendering of the term).
Please don't @The Hot Pepper , because "it's not what I like to read" and "shit show" should not be treated as synonyms.
PS: count the number of pods in The Story of Chile Peppers (NMSU, but yes the education system...).
Bou
eXtreme
I strongly agree with your statement. It's always good to know the right way to call things based on etymology but in the end it doesn't matter much as long as we understand each other! Also, like many THP members, I'm not a native English speaker and many of us use words that are probably outside the official scope, but is that ultimately so important? I understand RobStar's point of view about pods but FB groups and other pepper related channels all seem to be at the same level as this appelation (even if erroneous) is very common and widespread...
stop getting your knickers in a knot, it's a fooking pepper at the end of the day and we all love 'em
