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fermenting "Lacto" Taste in Fermented Sauces?

jblo

jblo

I've done 3 successful ferments now (two more finishing up), but what I find I don't like is the lacto smell/taste.
 
So at the end of the ferment when the sauce is opened up and being process, the smell of the aged peppers/onion/garlic smells great, but there's a "lacto" smell that I'm just not digging.
 
I just processed a 1/2 gal, 90 day orange hab/onion/garlic/carrot ferment that the flavor of the peppers/garlic have melded and mellowed nicely, but I find I don't know how to proceed with processing the sauce to mask that lacto smell/taste.  It's mild, but it's there and I don't think I like it.  Once out of the ferment, I boiled then simmered for 1hr, then blended, simmered 45, blended again.  Then added white wine vinegar, honey, lemon juice to finish.  Found myself trying to cover the lacto flavor with the honey and lemon.
 
Ferment was 1/2 gal growler of veggies, 4T whey from active yogurt.  4% sea salt.  Bottled water brine (4%).
 
Am I doing something wrong?
 
FWIW, I didn't notice the lacto flavor as much with my first two ferments after processing.  I've got 2 more ferments finishing up this weekend so I'll see if they've got the same lacto taste.
 
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poypoyking said:
That is the reason I don't use a lacto/whey starter in any of my ferments.  Sometimes you can't taste it but I don't like it so when you can it ruins a batch for me.  I just let nature take its course with the natural yeasts in the air.
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Does a wild ferment have a greater chance of spoiling?  What percentage of salt do you use?  How long do you let it collect yeasts from the air?
 
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I use the same amount of salt you do.  I either use a quart jar or a half gallon jar depending on the quantity of peppers/mash I am fermenting.
 
I measure out the salt beforehand, and get my jar (and lid ready.  I will chop up the peppers, then dump them in the jar a little at a time, sprinkling salt as I go.  By the time you are done chopping peppers the salt should have drawn enough water out of the peppers in the jar that if you mash them down there should be enough of a brine to cover the top.  If not add a little brine.  There is no need to leave the jar open for a while to collect yeast.  There will already be enough to get the ferment going.  There is a surprising amount of yeast in the air.
 
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"Does a wild ferment have a greater chance of spoiling?"

In short, yes. The addition of a starter can be viewed as safety. Some people say they don't want to use whey or whatever because that's not the natural species of lactobacillus that would normally ferment vegetables. However the thing about lactobacillus and other bacteria that are in staters we use is that they are homofermentive. Meaning the ferment sugars into one thing, lactic acid (well 2 if you count the CO2). So whether you add a whey/pill starter, or you let the lacto species that is part of the normal flora do the job, it will still be producing the same thing, lactic acid. Adding the starter just helps to ensure that the lacto grabs hold first and suppresses the nasties (mold spores, botulism, etc). As far as the above mentioned natural yeasts, sure if you are aiming for ethanol production, but for our purposes we use a small handful of lactic acid producing bacteria.

Now as far as the taste, fermented peppers just might not be your thing. For example, some people don't like sourdough bread.... yet I think it's the greatest goddamn thing. :D
 
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not to go too against the grain of what's been said here, but maybe try fermenting your peppers and other ingredients on a rougher chop with a 5% brine (as with naturally fermented pickles or sauerkraut). that way, if you don't want to use starter (for your own reasons), you can ensure with submersion/proper saline conditoins that you will get minimal influence from microorganisms that can't survive in a 5% brine or without oxygen. that may lessen the effects of other microorganism contribution to your flavor profile. i'm certainly not sure about this, but it might be worth a try.
 
with this method on my last two ferments, i really don't notice any lacto flavor, in fact, i think the acidic profile from the lactic acid produced is much less aggressive than vinegar and really doesn't stick out compared to the main ingredients.
 
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Heisenberg said:
Now as far as the taste, fermented peppers just might not be your thing. For example, some people don't like sourdough bread.... yet I think it's the greatest goddamn thing. :D
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Agreed! Though I've also found that my palate is sensitive enough to detect the adjunct ingredients in the starter pills... the things that keep the lacto-culture alive and soluble in dry pill form. When I brewed beer I got around that by using liquid yeast instead of packets of yeast granules. Like hoibot suggested, I use some of the brine from another ferment with an active culture (like sauerkraut or kimchi) to avoid adding those off-flavors. My personal preference is for kimchi brine since it adds more flavor.
 
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stickman said:
Agreed! Though I've also found that my palate is sensitive enough to detect the adjunct ingredients in the starter pills... the things that keep the lacto-culture alive and soluble in dry pill form. When I brewed beer I got around that by using liquid yeast instead of packets of yeast granules. Like hoibot suggested, I use some of the brine from another ferment with an active culture (like sauerkraut or kimchi) to avoid adding those off-flavors. My personal preference is for kimchi brine since it adds more flavor.
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Without starting my own kimchi (which sounds interesting - but I'd most certainly be the only one in my house eating it), any ideas on where to source active kimchi?
 
Can I use the brine from a present whey ferment to start another ferment?  That should minimize the lacto taste perhaps, right?  Can I store some brine for future use, and if so, how and how long?
 
Any thoughts on how using a lab-produced lacto shot would effect the flavor?
 
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All this talk about fermenting made me start another batch of sauerkraut and kimchi last night.  Tonight all the extra goodies go into the kimchi starter - onion, garlic, peppers, ginger, etc.  For reference those are half gallon jars.
 
IMG_20131114_242921_737_zpsc419f516.jpg
 
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jblo said:
Without starting my own kimchi (which sounds interesting - but I'd most certainly be the only one in my house eating it), any ideas on where to source active kimchi?
 
Can I use the brine from a present whey ferment to start another ferment?  That should minimize the lacto taste perhaps, right?  Can I store some brine for future use, and if so, how and how long?
 
Any thoughts on how using a lab-produced lacto shot would effect the flavor?
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honestly, you can just do the batch of kimchi or sauerkraut without a starter, there is plenty of micros on those ingredients to get things going. then you can use those subsequent cultures to start other things if you want.
 
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jblo said:
 
Without starting my own kimchi (which sounds interesting - but I'd most certainly be the only one in my house eating it), any ideas on where to source active kimchi?
 
Can I use the brine from a present whey ferment to start another ferment?  That should minimize the lacto taste perhaps, right?  Can I store some brine for future use, and if so, how and how long?
 
Any thoughts on how using a lab-produced lacto shot would effect the flavor?
Click to expand...
hoibot said:
 
honestly, you can just do the batch of kimchi or sauerkraut without a starter, there is plenty of micros on those ingredients to get things going. then you can use those subsequent cultures to start other things if you want.
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Exactly! The lacto-bacteria grows wild on the cabbage leaves. You just have to add enough salt to retard the growth of unwanted strains of microbes until the lactic acid lowers the pH to the point when it's more or less stable. A teaspoon of honey or agave syrup to give the bacteria an initial boost doesn't hurt either. Just be aware that unless you cook it in some way, this is a living culture and will continue until all the sugars are gone. Refrigeration will slow this down, but the ferment will continue to get more sour with time. Not such a problem with peppers that are low in sugar anyway, but cabbage is quite sweet and can sustain the ferment for quite a bit longer. This also goes for other sweet vegetables in the mash, like tomatoes, carrots, onions, etc.
 
I know very little about lacto cultures available for sale at brewing supply shops except that I don't care for the off-flavors I've tasted from them. Since I've had such good results with kimchi brine, I've never had to really check them out thoroughly. Asian food stores often carry kimchi... check the refrigerated foods section. Sauerkraut in the supermarkets is usually pasteurized to keep it shelf stable, so you'd likely want to use homemade sauerkraut brine to innoculate ferments. Hope this helps...
 
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stickman said:
Exactly! The lacto-bacteria grows wild on the cabbage leaves. You just have to add enough salt to retard the growth of unwanted strains of microbes until the lactic acid lowers the pH to the point when it's more or less stable. A teaspoon of honey or agave syrup to give the bacteria an initial boost doesn't hurt either. Just be aware that unless you cook it in some way, this is a living culture and will continue until all the sugars are gone. Refrigeration will slow this down, but the ferment will continue to get more sour with time. Not such a problem with peppers that are low in sugar anyway, but cabbage is quite sweet and can sustain the ferment for quite a bit longer. This also goes for other sweet vegetables in the mash, like tomatoes, carrots, onions, etc.
 
I know very little about lacto cultures available for sale at brewing supply shops except that I don't care for the off-flavors I've tasted from them. Since I've had such good results with kimchi brine, I've never had to really check them out thoroughly. Asian food stores often carry kimchi... check the refrigerated foods section. Sauerkraut in the supermarkets is usually pasteurized to keep it shelf stable, so you'd likely want to use homemade sauerkraut brine to innoculate ferments. Hope this helps...
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So I'm thinking I can save a few Tbsn of brine from an actively fermenting pepper mash I've got going now and keep it in the refridgerator for a week or two to use as a starter for my next ferment.  Right?
 
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jblo said:
 
So I'm thinking I can save a few Tbsn of brine from an actively fermenting pepper mash I've got going now and keep it in the refridgerator for a week or two to use as a starter for my next ferment.  Right?
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I've never tried what you suggest... it's never been necessary for me since I always have kimchi on hand at the same time I'm making ferments, and a batch of kimchi lasts in the refrigerator for up to 7 or 8 weeks. I just take a quarter-cup of brine from the kimchi and add it to my pepper mash along with a teaspoon of honey or agave nectar. It sounds like you're up to the next level, and your question might best be answered by the experts... like Sandor Ellix Katz at this website...   http://www.wildfermentation.com/
 He's written a couple of books on the subject, and leads seminars, so he should know the answer or be able to point you to someone who can. Cheers!
 
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jblo said:
 
So I'm thinking I can save a few Tbsn of brine from an actively fermenting pepper mash I've got going now and keep it in the refridgerator for a week or two to use as a starter for my next ferment.  Right?
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If you do make sure you put something in there for them to consume. Yeast will go dormant but I think Bacteria will just die.
 
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Raw consumable sugar would be quickly gone. some small diced carrots or sweet potato would be good. Keep it in the fridge and then say 24 to 48 hours prior to wanting to use it take it out and add something like some V8 juice and additional brine to bring it up to about 1000 ml's and allow the the bacteria colony to build up so that your pitching a higher number of living active cells to the fermentation jar. Same principle as used in homebrewing to get your yeast build up. I say V8 juice because it's vegetable based and the same as they'll be getting in the mash. 
 
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RocketMan said:
Raw consumable sugar would be quickly gone. some small diced carrots or sweet potato would be good. Keep it in the fridge and then say 24 to 48 hours prior to wanting to use it take it out and add something like some V8 juice and additional brine to bring it up to about 1000 ml's and allow the the bacteria colony to build up so that your pitching a higher number of living active cells to the fermentation jar. Same principle as used in homebrewing to get your yeast build up. I say V8 juice because it's vegetable based and the same as they'll be getting in the mash. 
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Perfect.  I'll try this in the very near future on my next ferment.  Maybe this weekend if I can get to it.
 
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