Parick's SBJ7

[patrick]

I can be wrong! But the fruit body is already there before the flower gets pollinated, isn't it?

Not sure if it's the fruit body or the "egg" to the fruit body. Nothing will grow until the "egg" gets fertilized right?

The other thread I started about the "F's" has reached a, what I really hope anyway, a conclusion that I believe is correct. Still doesn't answer the question here about whether choosing specific pods will make any difference.

How do you know that?^^ Just a very interesting topic, I do not want to be offensive! But if the pod itself( without the seeds) carries the plants genotype, and (unless its a chimera) it has the same genes everywhere, what difference does it make which pod you choose?

No no no, not being offensive at all! Love the discussion, hopefully we'll either stumble upon a correct answer or somebody with more smarts than me will come along and straighten this out.

Try this on for size.

Definition: An allele is an alternative form of a gene (one member of a pair) that is located at a specific position on a specific chromosome. These DNA codings determine distinct traits that can be passed on from parents to offspring. The process by which alleles are transmitted was discovered by Gregor Mendel and formulated in what is known as Mendel's law of segregation.

Examples:
The gene for seed shape in pea plants exists in two forms, one form or allele for round seed shape ® and the other for wrinkled seed shape ®.

Organisms have two alleles for each trait. When the alleles of a pair are heterozygous, one is dominant and the other is recessive. The dominant allele is expressed and the recessive allele is masked. Using the previous example, round seed shape ® is dominant and wrinkled seed shape ® is recessive. Round: (RR) or (Rr), Wrinkled: (rr).

I found this here: http://www.google.co...9,d.b2I&cad=rja

So maybe by selecting pods with the traits we want they have more of the dominant alleles that give it those traits. By choosing those pods, growing plants from those seeds and then crossing them unto themselves we're making the allele that causes the traits we want to become the dominant ones. Hence by selecting the pods with the traits we like we can grow plants that produce those pods. Holy cow that makes sense to me. I'm stunned.

 

[millworkman]

Examples:
The gene for seed shape in pea plants exists in two forms, one form or allele for round seed shape ® and the other for wrinkled seed shape ®.

Organisms have two alleles for each trait. When the alleles of a pair are heterozygous, one is dominant and the other is recessive. The dominant allele is expressed and the recessive allele is masked. Using the previous example, round seed shape ® is dominant and wrinkled seed shape ® is recessive. Round: (RR) or (Rr), Wrinkled: (rr).

So maybe by selecting pods with the traits we want they have more of the dominant alleles that give it those traits. By choosing those pods, growing plants from those seeds and then crossing them unto themselves we're making the allele that causes the traits we want to become the dominant one. Hence by selecting the pods with the traits we like we can grow plants that produce those pods. Holy cow that makes sense to me. I'm stunned.

This is basically what I was saying. When you pull a big, round, smooth pod off a plant and plant those seeds and pull a small, stingered, bumpy pod off the same plant and plant those seeds, genetically they are identical yes(unless you didn't isolate you bad boy) but the small, stingered, bumpy seeds will show more small, stingered bumpy pods while the big, round, smooth seeds will show more big, round, smooth pods. While the small, singered, bumpy plants may still put out big, round, smooth pods sometimes the likely hood is less each time you select the small, stingered, bumpy pods for seeds.

Whew! I had to proofread like a beast to make sure it was readable, still not completely sure though.

 

[patrick]

Nailed it millman. I was trying to figure out why. Think we did too.

 

[millworkman]

BOOYAH!!!!!

 

[patrick]

That's what I'm talking about!

 

[icebarker]

Not sure if it's the fruit body or the "egg" to the fruit body. Nothing will grow until the "egg" gets fertilized right?

The other thread I started about the "F's" has reached a, what I really hope anyway, a conclusion that I believe is correct. Still doesn't answer the question here about whether choosing specific pods will make any difference.



No no no, not being offensive at all! Love the discussion, hopefully we'll either stumble upon a correct answer or somebody with more smarts than me will come along and straighten this out.

Try this on for size.

Definition: An allele is an alternative form of a gene (one member of a pair) that is located at a specific position on a specific chromosome. These DNA codings determine distinct traits that can be passed on from parents to offspring. The process by which alleles are transmitted was discovered by Gregor Mendel and formulated in what is known as Mendel's law of segregation.

Examples:
The gene for seed shape in pea plants exists in two forms, one form or allele for round seed shape ® and the other for wrinkled seed shape ®.

Organisms have two alleles for each trait. When the alleles of a pair are heterozygous, one is dominant and the other is recessive. The dominant allele is expressed and the recessive allele is masked. Using the previous example, round seed shape ® is dominant and wrinkled seed shape ® is recessive. Round: (RR) or (Rr), Wrinkled: (rr).

I found this here: http://www.google.co...9,d.b2I&cad=rja

So maybe by selecting pods with the traits we want they have more of the dominant alleles that give it those traits. By choosing those pods, growing plants from those seeds and then crossing them unto themselves we're making the allele that causes the traits we want to become the dominant ones. Hence by selecting the pods with the traits we like we can grow plants that produce those pods. Holy cow that makes sense to me. I'm stunned.

Well, but Mendel didn't use any Capsicum species but pisum sativum. I just wanted to mention this if you are basing your thoughts on that ''sing the previous example, round seed shape ® is dominant and wrinkled seed shape ® is recessive. Round: (RR) or (Rr), Wrinkled: (rr).'' - part. This may or may not be the case with the capsicum species. I do not know this.It probably is much more complicated than that ( many genes playing together).
In your theory you use your dominant alleles like something there is a certain amount of, like some kind of substance. But in every cell other than the halpoid gametes, there are always just the same amount of chromosomes. You can't have ''more of the dominant alleles''. You can either be homozygous or heterozygous.In either way, if you have one dominant allele, you have the wrinkled phenotype. You have the same DNA in all of the plants cells, so that makes all of your pod DNA the same.
Also, you can't just change which gene is the dominant one and which one is the recessive one. That would be to easy.
I think, what I am trying to say is: You can't tell what kind of DNA you have in the seeds( and therefore the next gen) from looking at the pods. I refer to my tepin/bell pepper example: Why wouldn't the DNA of the new cross affect the look of the pod on the tepin plant (/motherplant)? you still have the tepin pod on there. The plant doesn't just say ''i just fertilized myself, know i will express the seeds genome that via my pods'' VS '' I have just been fertilized by some different plant, that's why i don't think I show the genome of my seeds via the pods''.
I hope you can follow me. Its 2 am and english is not my native language.

But thats just my thoughts on this topic, I only know basic stuff about genetics.so I really consider myself a noob on that matter.So everything I say could be totally wrong.What works best for you is just fine. At long it's fun and gets the job done.

 

[patrick]

Oh no. No no no no no. I had myself convinced I figured things out and icebarker you come along with the facts and screw me up again. I do appreciate it, thank you.

I did observe Mendel was referring to peas and was leaning towards them being similar to peppers since they can both self pollinate. I know, nothing scientific about that. I'm spending half my time looking up definitions of words being used. I'm certain it's much more complicated but then I'm going to have trouble understanding and expressing what I find.

I see what you're saying about the alleles and either being homozygous or heterozygous and the dominant allele running the show. You explained it better than my link did.

I'm going to need a refresher course or two in plant genetics.

So now I have to wonder what's the point of saving seeds from the best looking pods? If every seed in every pepper is going to grow the exact same plant.

If the genes are exactly the same on every pod then why don't they look exactly alike? Bah!!!

 

[Sownseeds]

I found out today something about Genes, Diarrhea is hereditary it runs in the jeanes.
Anyway here is a few sb7j pics.

 

[icebarker]

Genetics can be pretty crazy, Sometimes there are also other things happening than just what Mendel said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_effect is one example. Mendel had luck he decided to use peas for his experiments, if he didn't, he would maybe have never come to any conclusion. So I really would say we try to find someone who has a little more knowledge concerning pepper DNA.

If the genes are exactly the same on every pod then why don't they look exactly alike? Bah!!!

The same reason because the leaves also sometimes have different sizes etc. The processes are probably regulated by different hormones, if the right are there, the hormon regulation dictates production of bigger pods than in situation where there are not the right condition. I see this on my chinense. The first pods are always small, not that hot etc. but in the late sommer, they really get brutal. In many varieties, the forms are pretty similar. Your left face half isn't completly mirror inverted either. But to completely explain the exact happenings while producing pods I really don't have the knowledge.
I really would love that you guys are right. It would be so much easier to cross and isolate peppers.

 

[patrick]

sownseeds that pods looks perfect.

Genes may be part of the reason for your early vs late season pod difference icebarker but I'm pretty sure temps have something to do with it too. Now tell me you grow yours in a greenhouse and everything stays the same to crush another theory. Ha!

I have the same thing happen and I'm sure most other growers who have similar growing conditions experience similar results. Average high temps are around 82F/28C when I start to get my first ripe pods. Towards the peak of the heat my highs can average in the high 90'sF high 30'sC. Those temps grow some big, fat, HOT pods.

I wish we could get Dr. Bosland of the NMSU Chili Pepper Institute to stop by and do some pepper gene teaching. Heck I'm going to go ask him. Maybe we could get a grad student to stop by.

 

[Portuge]

Surprised that hes not part of THP or a member on the forum... Lets hear it from the man and see what he has to say about all this..

 

[GA Growhead]

Patrick,
Since pods grow, i would think there are environmental factors at work too. Just like leaf size, or branching on a plant will vary under different conditions of light and nutrients, even with two cuttings from the same plant. That would be why no two pods are identical. There are always minute to major differences with size and shape of pods on the same plant. Some more than others.
Now DNA wise, lets talk humans. When a woman's body makes eggs or a male makes sperm, it cuts the number of chromosomes by half. Its a random process of your father's and mother's genes split into half the total chromosomes needed for what you will pass foward. So each individual egg and sperm are different, cause there are a ton of chromosomes to have choice from when they randomly combine. When they meet, they recombine into a full set and start the process of growing into another human.
Now looking at a plants, each flower essentially holds an egg, called a gametophyte, having half the genetic code needed of the plant. So it would appear that each flower is infact carrying a different possible combination of genetic code for its half of the seeds to be produced. The pollen carrying the othet half.
From what i read, it appears the fruit itself is an uterus, being a part of the plant, contain the same DNA of the plant. The pods essentially grows in the same manor as leaves called carpels.

So yes, it would matter which pod you chose, but it seems that the pod itself is not expressing the genetic data carried foward like you would think. The pod is formed by the genetic date of the plant and may or may not carry the gene for the pod shape.

Someone double check this for us please, but that is how i have read it.

 

[patrick]

GA Growhead thanks for that.

This is just ruining my brain. If the pod itself isn't carrying the genetic data to grow a similar looking pod then what difference would pod selection make? Please don't think I'm asking you that GA, I'm just talking out loud to myself here.

I am hereby surrendering. I no longer care. I am going to continue to select the pods I like and grow plants from them. If it works awesome if it doesn't than slightly less awesome but I'm still growing peppers. I think I'm going to cry for a while.

Thanks again GA and to all who contributed. Please keep those SB7J pics coming.

 

[GA Growhead]

Lol. I feel ya. I thought i knew for sure. Then i would read more and then question myself. Back and forth, im thinking right and now im wrong. And it looks like i was right but wrong. ¿?¿
Cool cross btw.
I want to see more picts too!

 

[Trippa]

Not every seed will carry the same genetics its simply a mix of all genetics in varying amounts. So selecting both on plant form and pod shape are legitimate ways to go about selection. Put it this way if a plant put out 30pods and all of them bar 1 had a round form but you wanted a spiky form which the other single pod had you would save seeds from that pod only.

 

[patrick]

I sent NMSU an email asking for a little advice. Here's my question to them:

Hello NMSU CPI Folks, Patrick Mumford here. Long time chili grower and customer. I have a huge favor to ask of someone there who has more smarts than myself and a bunch of other chili growers who spend a bit of time at a great chili growing site TheHotPepper.com. http://www.thehotpepper.com/index We could use a lesson in pepper genetics. A simple lesson. Many of us have always thought if we find a pod that has the physical traits we like that our odds of getting similar pods on the next plant increase if we use the seeds from that pod. Continue that process, fertilizing the pods onto themselves or with immediate siblings of course, that we would eventually come up with a plant that grows pods with the shape we want. The sites that most of us are trying to get our question figured out use language that us old, non genetic knowing chiliheads are having trouble understanding. Hence the request for a simple lesson. Thanks a bunch for your time and consideration. Patrick Mumford ChiliHead

Two days later here's the response I got:

Hi Patrick, nice to hear from you. Yes, you are absolutely correct. The only other thing to be sure of is that subsequent generations are not being cross pollinated. If these plants are being grown outdoors with other varieties of the same species there is a very high chance that you will get cross pollination. We make hybridizations, the look at the following generations and choose plants with traits that we want, then grow those out, making sure they only get self pollinated, after several generations of this you should have plants that possess the characteristics you need. I hope this helps, thanks for writing

Not from Dr. Bosland himself, I believe it was a grad student. Either way it works for me.

 

[GA Growhead]

Patrick, your question to them doesn't state specifically about selecting an individual pod that shows a certain characteristic, that other pods on the same plant do not show, like choosing a scorpion tailed pod verses a more hab like pod on the same plant. And doing so to achieve the scorp shape in the next generation. The response you got is generally selecting plants to carry foward traits, which we already know works. I don't think they understood what we really want to know.

 

[frdlturner]

maybe this will make since.
you cross parent 1 with parent 2 you get a fruit that has F1 seed.
you isolate this seed and you grow out that F1 seed and chose the fruit you like the best That seed is a F2
you conntinue to do this kepping each generation isolated. once you get to F8 then you should have a stable seed and the seed will produce the same type that you want.

 

[icebarker]

Patrick, your question to them doesn't state specifically about selecting an individual pod that shows a certain characteristic, that other pods on the same plant do not show, like choosing a scorpion tailed pod verses a more hab like pod on the same plant. And doing so to achieve the scorp shape in the next generation. The response you got is generally selecting plants to carry foward traits, which we already know works. I don't think they understood what we really want to know.

I thought the same!

Liebe Grüße

 

[patrick]

Patrick, your question to them doesn't state specifically about selecting an individual pod that shows a certain characteristic, that other pods on the same plant do not show, like choosing a scorpion tailed pod verses a more hab like pod on the same plant. And doing so to achieve the scorp shape in the next generation. The response you got is generally selecting plants to carry foward traits, which we already know works. I don't think they understood what we really want to know.

I thought the same!

Liebe Grüße

Hold on a sec. I don't recall being focused on the traits of one lone pod that is different from every other pod on a plant and trying to propagate that trait.

As for getting the answer I was looking for I did. "Many of us have always thought if we find a pod that has the physical traits we like that our odds of getting similar pods on the next plant increase if we use the seeds from that pod."

I'm sorry guys but I wasn't aware that we were talking about a single pod on a plant, the only pod on the plant, that had the traits we wanted and growing it forward. I've never looked at it that way. Go back and you'll see what started my questions. Someone, I think it was you icebarker, said taking a specific pod and using seeds from it won't improve your chances of growing a similar pod. Yep found it. Your post #46. If I'm wrong I apologize.

Here's the link to send them an email: http://www.chilepepp...rg/email_us.php I'm satisfied with the response, it answered the question I wanted an answer to. If you guys, and I hope you do, ask about the single pod trait I would love to hear the answer.

fldturner thanks for trying to help, we had that part figured out.