breeding Pepper crossing question

[armyofda12mnkeys]

Hey all,

I wanted to get into pepper crossing this year. I kinda did last year but didn't emasculate the receiving flowers at all, so left it up to chance to see if they would pollinate by brushing the flower I wanted to use as my 'male' and then putting a very small seed ziplock plastic around it that also contained the male flower touching the pistol just in case my initial transfer didn't work. I do see somewhere between 25% to 50% of my crosses are much different looking so it was somewhat a success. I'll do the real steps (aka emasculating) for new crosses i want to make to get that up to 100% this year . But anyway I had a question.

For the crossing guide on https://www.fatalii.net/growing_chile_peppers/breeding (chart below), they mention: "PF = F1 hybrids partially fertile", what does that mean?
The seeds of the cross I got last year that I am growing this year, aka my first year of the cross (aka F1), the seeds of those may or may not be fertile?
So if they grew out this spring and became plants this year, then Im good since that proves that particular F1 seed was Fertile? and every single plant of next year's generation will be viable/fertile and so on and so on (just have to stabilize the variation/genetics i want)?

or does that mean this years upcoming F1's seeds (which will become next years F2 plant) will only be partially fertile? So some of those seeds i collect this year may or may not actually grow next year?

Sorry if that was confusing, but hopefully someone can answer .

NG = F1 hybrids germinate normally
EC = F1 hybrids raised by embryo culture
IV = fruits/seeds set, but F1 seeds inviable
PF = F1 hybrids partially fertile
HF = F1 hybrids highly fertile

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

A fun #1 hot cross I didn't notice before as they ripen red but until then they are a orange and red mix. I think a few others had more of a orange-red ripening color, but this one had more of a mix.
Will debate saving seeds of these in case anyone wants

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

I did get a few interesting varieties from grower in Harrisburg...
smaller shaped peppers were only like 6% of peppers for me... but he got 3 out of 8. and 1 out of those 8 is not hot. So I kinda got what i wanted ...
a 'not hot' pepper, with a small shape (although not as small as Aji Charapita), and in a yellow/orange color which is what I prefered (#2 below).
I also got a peach colored round one from him that looks kinda interesting (#5 below)...
I would say its hot but on the lower spectrum, maybe 4 out of 10. I ate like 3 of them in a minute (maybe less than Aji Lemon Drop level heat [maybe even half as much]).

Harrisburg#1 (hot):

Harrisburg#2 (Kinda small and NOT HOT):

Harrisburg#3 (hot):

Harrisburg#4 (small hot):

Harrisburg#5 (small, HOT but not super hot):

Harrisburg#6 (hot):

Harrisburg#7 (thin and medium sized, but hot):

Size comparison of #2 vs #5:

So I will save seeds of #2 and #5 to grow out next year.
Took alot of F2 peppers to get NOT HOT and Small-ish shape .
Out of lets say 60-70 peppers plants so far, only 1 had both those 2 attributes.

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

Here are my selections to grow for 2024.
If anyone wants any seeds of any of these selections, let me know.

A quick summary of the crosses:
####
#1: GrenadaSeasoning x BiquinhoYellow (Chinense x Chinense)
####
#2: GrenadaSeasoning x PérolaIaranja (Chinense x Chinense)

Last 2023 summer year was F2 generation so got some diversity in this generation, esp from #1.
#1 F2's were a mix of NotHots/Hots + many colors (red/yellow/orange/peach) + many different shapes
#2 F2s were more unform: all NotHots + yellow + slightly different shapes (but nothing too crazy in differences in shape, some closer to BY, some closer to GS, some a mix of both shapes)

My naming format below is basically:
${location}-${hybrid #1 or #2}-${plant at that location}

###Selections from Variety #1:##############################################################################

13-#1-2:
hot flavor (BUT I'm hoping to get notHot genetics in this 3rd generation) + yellow color + small size + small acorn shape
This had 2 out of the 3 attributes i wanted. Im hoping we get some 'not hots' from this generation as it was a very pretty cute acorn shape.

#########
23-#1-1:
NotHot flavor + pretty orange-peach color + medium shape + longer thin profile with little 'crinkles' or bend in the shape.
This one was a pretty notHot one so would like some people to try it. I didn't have as many seeds of this one, so only a few got it.

#########
HPF-#1-2:
NotHot flavor + pretty yellow-orange/peach color + small-medium size (although hoping to get even smaller selection in the 3rd generation) + shape is short but slightly oblong.
I wanted alot of people to try this as out of 150-200 plants we all grew, this was the smallest not-hot one. and hoping they get even smaller to a more round pea shape. It had 2.5 out of the 3 attributes i wanted (NotHot + but fruity hab flavor + small shape [but it was more small-medium sized so i only gave it half of a point there]). This was from one of our growers in Harrisburg, so I have to thank all of you for helping me grow these to find this selection. The name HPF is based on where he grew this variety #1 (aka Harrisburg) and his initials (P.F.) if you were curious.

#########
HPF-#1-5:
medium-level heat (but hoping to get NotHot genetics in this 3rd generation) + orange/peach color + small-medium size (although hoping to get even smaller selection in the 3rd generation) + shape is round. I didn't send this one to too many people as it only had 1 out of 3 attributes i wanted.

###Selections from Variety #2:##############################################################################

8-#2-1:
NotHot flavor + yellow color + medium size + its a bit fat/round shape at the top

#########
8-#2-2:
NotHot flavor + yellow color + longer size + the shape tapers to a point or 'scorpion-tail' curved point.

#########
38-#2-2:
NotHot flavor + yellow color + larger size + its a bit fat/round shape at the top (kinda a shape mix between Beqhiuno Yellow and Grenada Seasoning). even though i wanted more smaller shapes, this was maybe the largest NotHot one so might be worth trying to grow out.
I didn't have a pic of this one so i put a picture of a similar looking one (although 38-#2-2 were bigger than below pic).

#################################################################################
There were a few other NotHot minor selections that were good that I may grow out, basically any #2 had a NotHot flavor might be fun to try out, as i had some prolific ones:
1-#2-1, 1-#2-2, 1-#2-3

#########
4-#2-1
a larger Bequinho Yellow shape (has that 'fat top'):

#########
15-#1-1 was one of smallest [but hot] but only got 10 seeds of it, so ill prob only grow it myself to see if any NotHot genes get exposed in F3.

#########
Medium 5 lobed one #2 that was NotHot (pretty shape), I may have lost which variety this was hah (but most definately saved the seeds of it). Usually my records in Excel are impeccable... I might be able to find out soon by backtracking and see which #2's i saved seeds from that have < 30 seeds in the packet since from the date i can see i harvested in very late, so prob the only one i got seeds from:

#########
33-#1-2... This was a yellow NotHot #1 that was the only one out of 150-200 plants had more rough 'dimply' skin similar to super-hots like BrainStrain:

#########
There were 2 plants that had green leaves the 1st week of December in Philly while all the other plants/leaves turned to mush after maybe around 2 frosts (one of them was more exposed to cold in a 3gallon pot which was more impressive). I didn't get any fruit from them (maybe cause I planted them very late in a 2nd round of growing).
I saved the plants to see the fruit in 2024 summer and see if the cold-hardyness was a fluke in chinesis hybrid.
#########

Here is one NotHot one a person grew in-ground that got huge size-wise (i only grew in pots mostly).
Wonder if it was hybrid vigor that will be more tame size-wise in next generation:
https://www.facebook.com/reel/3654432181502382

Anyway, if anyone wants any seeds of any of these selections, lemee know .
-Arian

 

[HerbCasa]

15-#1-1 I like them
I like how your peppers are coming out.
Some that look hot but
Are not

If you keep any more Hot
15-#1-1
seeds of these you can part with in future tests.

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

I planted all the seeds of the 15-1-1. Unfortunately its the slowest grower in my seed tray (extremely slow so far) so we'll see how it does once it gets out in the sun soon.
Have hundreds of plants growing now, will give out to a few farmers to trial out in a month or so.

 

[HerbCasa]

Thanks
I will be checking out the new pepper plants.
Keep up the good work.

 

[PaulinaFK]

Thats a great thread, Im following along! Trying to grow some hand-made crosses myself this year. Great seeing some others following the phenotypes

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

I'll give more updates as I get results in August/September. I was pretty happy that I got alot of farmer types to try out my peppers.
I probably gave away somewhere between 300 to 500 seedlings for this F3 generation of many selections to trial out and stabilize.

I am the most curious about the hot ones from F2 generation from variety #1.
25% of those from F2 were not hot, which according to this chart seems like what occurred (Wasnt sure if the NotHot type pepper i was looking for, is because of a single 'capsacum knockout' gene vs a gene that sets various heat-levels and have to get lucky to get a low-heat level... im going to guess the former, since I got exactly 25% in my results):

so if a variety ends up red in F2, then it still has the NotHot "Capsicum Knockout" gene maybe and maybe it'll be expressed in F3 if its a recessive gene that needs 2 "NotHots" to be expressed? I guess we'll see. I assume F3 would be a similar chart if its pollinating itself? so 25% chance to find a "NotHot x NotHot" from variety 13-#1-2 (which was a somewhat smaller acorn-shaped pepper). So trying to get a variation in F3 and actually start stabilizing it in F4 going forward. Hoping the acorn 13-#1-2 peppers aren't "Hot x Hot" but guess we'll see.

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

So I did get a small "not-hot" yellow from my 13-#1-2 branch... Still more ripening but I'm going to guess my 25% guess above was right as 1 out of 4 plants so far has the non-hotness on/off gene (vs the sliding-scale genes talked about earlier that control hotness).
I also saved a plant that didn't produce fruit last year since I planted it late ... but i overwintered it and it just produced a similar acorn-shaped but red peppers (but hot similar to last years F2 13-#1-2 .... i wonder in its F3 next year if it will do the same 25% non-hotness to show up [if its in the 'HOT x notHot' group above vs 'HOT x HOT'] so i may save the seeds of that one).

Very tempted to backcross this to Aji Charapita to get an even smaller shape and keep the notHotness.
Shape seems a hard thing to control in outcomes.

23-#1-2 (the peach long-bean-shaped non-hot) so far maybe is 100% not-hot (guess it lucked out last year and got non-hotness into this #1 branch while 13-#1-2 needed an extra year to get both of the recessive gene to show up). No pics of this one, but I'll post once I get more.
It produces very tall plants consistently, vs 13-#1-2 which is more bushy and short.

I did get a new shape variation in F3 from my 8-#2-1 branch from a nearby grower (I didn't see this shape in any branch last year among 150-200 plants). Most of the shapes from #2 branch were not too exciting. Usuallly they are either very close in shape to one of the parents or a mix in between of the 2 parent shapes, nothing very random like #1 branch did.
A non-hot scotch-bonnet? looking shape. I will save alot of seeds of this one (although i sometimes don't like peppers with indented crevices like this, where bugs/spiders/mold can hide ):

 

[Annuchin]

Really fun to read through this thread! Just some remark: if you find an interesting phenotype, don't throw it out when it is hot, it could still be heterozygous and reward you next year with heatless offspring.

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

Really fun to read through this thread! Just some remark: if you find an interesting phenotype, don't throw it out when it is hot, it could still be heterozygous and reward you next year with heatless offspring.

Yah its true. The 13-1-2 thread had 2 out of 3 attributes i wanted (kinda small fun shape, yellow, but hot), and this year 25% of them are not-hot.

Also a variety last year that didn't make any fruit in time by the end of the summer (cause i planted it late), i overwintered and it just produced and also is 'not hot', and has this pretty 'fire' red-orange color that only came out in another hot variety last year. Pic of that below (for my reference 2023 variety 19-1-2):

 

[NJChilehead]

@armyofda12mnkeys wow! I didn't see this thread before-this is a great thread and I really respect all of the hard work and effort that you put into these. Looks like I'm going to have to do a deeper dive and learn how to do this, there are a few chinenses I've always wanted to attempt to cross to see the results. Following!

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

Here is an interesting attribute i've seen in some peppers.
Some varieties start off with a pale ghostly green then ripen to their final color.
While some start with a dark green and ripen to their final color (both of these will ripen yellow and are from the same F2 branch) ....

 

[CaneDog]

Hey Army. I haven't posted here in a while, but I've been keeping up and it's great to see the continued development of your project.

You may already be aware of this, but the range of colors for immature pods is governed by an allelic series at the sulfur-white "sw" locus, so you can select for this. It's addressed briefly in the Color of Peppers 2 webpage and also in The Genes of Capsicum.

Hope the dice keep rolling well for you!

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

Some review of the peppers so far:

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

PS that scotch-bonnet looking one from post#69, I am pretty sure that is Trinidad Perfume (most of the others on the plant looked closer to Trinidad Perfume vs a Scotch Bonnet). I visited my grower nearby and he bought alot of peppers from another grower that he was also growing, and I can tell those were all sizewise larger than my plants he got later in the spring. I think he made a mistake in his garden map thinking those plants were mine (all 5 plants looked like Trinidad Perfume, and there is no way mathematically all 6 plants would have that same rare shape 100% from either of my crosses). Anyway, I trust plants from my own yard, and have to take what everyone else grows with a grain of salt minus a couple more hardcore growers that keep excellent logs.

 

[CaneDog]

Nice video, Army, and some good looking shapes. The crunch when you bit into the #27 sounded good!

 

[armyofda12mnkeys]

I noticed some plants pods drying out be4 getting a final color from this branch. I guess I have a 'white' pepper as seen in top row, compared to others in this branch which have a yellow/orange or red color. Hard to tell in pic, but it's closer to white or cream color than a light-yellow or light-green color. These are all mostly not-hot, minus a few hot plants.