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breeding Question on Cross Pollination

gasificada

gasificada

Hmmm, trying to think how to phrase this....

What factors would one consider before making a decision on which one of their two plants will be the mother and which will be the father? For example, does either mother or father have a stronger influence on how the new plant and pods will turn out? or is it more of a "stab in the dark" kind of scenario (could turn out either way)?
 
I may be wrong, but with F1s, as long as you are crossing stable varieties, you're gonna get pretty much uniform offspring regardless of the sex of donor/pod flower.
I may be wrong though.
 
I think Fatalii.net might have the crossing chart. Or is it the chiliman site...... someone might be a long shortly to let ya know. Otherwise you could always take the off beaten trail and try something different.
 
Some plants/animals have vastly different results for each side of the cross, for example you get the worlds largest cat when you cross a lion and tiger (liger) but when you do the other way around you get a tigon (a much smaller animal).

I do both ends of a cross just incase one is more attractive to me.
 
I've heard that it doesn't matter which is the mother and which is the father, you'll get the same f1's but I often question this. Lets say you're crossing a chinense with an annuum. If the annuum is the mother then the seeds I'd think would be bigger and hardier like an annuum which would likely be more preferable.
 
POTAWIE said:
I've heard that it doesn't matter which is the mother and which is the father, you'll get the same f1's but I often question this. Lets say you're crossing a chinense with an annuum. If the annuum is the mother then the seeds I'd think would be bigger and hardier like an annuum which would likely be more preferable.
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Indeed, I have several two sides crosses and don't get me wrong, they are very similar but they are not the same plants. And the parent mother plant (the seed bearer) does tend to put more into the resulting F1 child than the father which is odd.
 
Genetically speaking, you'll get the same result by crossing in a way or the other the two varieties.
But there's still some little possible differences...
The chloroplasts and mitochondrias are coming from the mother plant cells mainly. Even if these organelles should be pretty similar in a lot of varieties, there may be a difference between species.
Some self recombining other things (a few ARNs are self recombining if i'm not mistaken) come from the mother plant too.
But in most crosses you won't see a difference.
There may be a difference of fertility when trying to pollinate different species too, but it's just my guess... ^^

edit: about what Potawie said, for the F1 seeds, yes you'll get on it the traits from the mother plant (aka size of seed...), but in the seeds the F1 will make (the F2), there shouldn't be differences, so it all depends if you're after creating a nice F1 hybrid variety or beginning to make a new inbred variety

edit2: about how to choose the mother plant, i would say it's more on vegetative traits that you should aim for (like growth habit, leaf color, vigor)
i don't say it will have an effect, but it's better to put all chances on your side just in case ^^
but the best is to try both ways and see if you got differencies, then choose the one you prefer
 
Awesome stuff, thanks guys!

Not sure whether I will be giving cross breeding a burl this season or not but I'm definitely still super-curious of how it all works!

Another question... when one talks about "stabilizing" a cross, what does that involve? I'm assuming for one it means growing out the new plant a few times (saving the new seed each time to grow the next) to make sure it stays the same... can anyone expand on that (or correct me if I'm wrong)?
 
You just need to isolate and inbreed your hybrid plant for several years(around 8-12 generations) to get a stable true breeding variety, and always choose seeds from pods/plants with most desirable characteristics. To do this effectively you'll need to grow out lots and lots of plants, you can't easily improve or stabilize a strain by only growing one or two plants
 
well, the stabilized varietes are what we call inbred lines and they are homozygous, which means the chromosomes of each chromosome pairs are identical (or quite, maybe some new varieties still have some genetic variations which aren't seen on the breeding goals).
these kind of varietes breed true when self pollinated for all traits (and they are the basis of commercial F1 hybrids).

so basically, when you cross two stabilized varietes, you're creating a F1 hybrid, and if the parents are well stabilized, all the plants from this cross will be gentically identical.

then you want to stabilize the cross to make it breed true for what you want (keep in mind you may not be able get exactly what you want, as some traits are linked on same chromosomes).
(note that you could just want to create a F1 hybrid variety and you'll be able to make some seeds again if you keep the parents by self pollination)

the main problem is that involves to grow a lot of plants if you want to maximize the chances to get the wanted genes combinations.
it involves another thing for the combinations, luck ^^
you can still try to make a new stabilized variety with few plant number, but you'll rely more on luck, and you may have to choose something a little different that what you would have wanted, but it's still worth a try for fun and you may get something good anyway, supposing you're crossing two good varieties ;)

the way to stabilize a cross is to grow a few of the F1s, but normally they should be identical (or quite, there's always some differences in genetic expression with environmental differences), self pollinate them, you'll get F2 seeds
the F2 generation is the one that will show the most different combinations of genes, and so it should be better to grow as many plants as you can
sow the F2 seeds (preferably from the best F1 plant) and self pollinate them, you'll get F3 seeds
that's where the job begins to be funny, as the F2 plants are really heterogeneous, you'll have to choose one or a few plants that express the desired traits from your breeding goal (note that with gene dominance, some desired traits may not be expressed in some plants but still be at next generations)
from tese few F2 chossen plants you grow several of their F3 seeds etc...

at each generation you do the same, choose the best plants that matches your breeding goals and grow several seeds from them.
the plants will be more homogeneous at each generation, generally you'll be able to fix a few traits after 3-4 generations (which means F4-F5 could be stabilized for a few traits (like pods shape/color), but maybe not all)
at which generation you'll get a totally inbred line depends on luck and on good breeding choices (if you breed for a trait that rely on codominance, you'll never be able to fix it).
at F7-F9, the variety should be totally stabilized, but it could have been already stabilzed a few years before depending on your luck/choices.

hope that helps :)
 
POTAWIE said:
To do this effectively you'll need to grow out lots and lots of plants, you can't easily improve or stabilize a strain by only growing one or two plants
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in fact you'll be able to stabilize a strain by only growing one or two plants, but it won't be stabilized like you want, and you'll end up with a new strain with randomized genes combination from the parents.
but this could even be interesting :D
 
FayahBen said:
in fact you'll be able to stabilize a strain by only growing one or two plants, but it won't be stabilized like you want, and you'll end up with a new strain with randomized genes combination from the parents.
but this could even be interesting :D
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Ya but you're likely looking to improve a variety or add valuable traits, not cause inbreeding depression. I'd suggest growing at least a dozen plants(preferably much more) and only choose the most desirable, productive ones for the next generation and then keep doing the same every year until its stable

Edit: I mean outbreeding depression not inbreeding ;)
 
POTAWIE said:
Ya but you're likely looking to improve a variety or add valuable traits, not cause inbreeding depression.
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How do you avoid inbreeding depression if you want to keep a strain pure? Say an heirloom like Datil - or Scoch Bonnet TFM or Brain Strain? We isolate flowers/plants because we want to avoid cross breeding and encourage inbreeding.
 
POTAWIE said:
You just need to isolate and inbreed your hybrid plant for several years(around 8-12 generations) to get a stable true breeding variety, and always choose seeds from pods/plants with most desirable characteristics. To do this effectively you'll need to grow out lots and lots of plants, you can't easily improve or stabilize a strain by only growing one or two plants
Click to expand...

Nice discussion going on here. I've been wondering about pod selection when saving seeds. I usually save the best looking pods for seed and this year I've been saving my earliest pods too. I wonder if it makes any difference which pod you select if they all come from the same plant. As long as the pod is healthy does it matter if it was early in the season or if it has a nice shape? I'm thinking it would have the same genetics as the other pods on the plant unless the pollen changes during the season. Even if there's variability in the pollen would that influence the pod shape at all?
 
POTAWIE said:
Ya but you're likely looking to improve a variety or add valuable traits, not cause inbreeding depression. I'd suggest growing at least a dozen plants(preferably much more) and only choose the most desirable, productive ones for the next generation and then keep doing the same every year until its stable
Click to expand...

in fact pepper strains are inbred lines (or quite if not totally stabilized), that's why they breed true when you're self pollinating them to make your seeds
pepper is not sensitive to inbreeding depression, even if some heterozygosity can improve some traits (like vigor and yield)
it's like this with all autogamous plants, or this would be a big failure in their sexuality behaviour :D

to keep a stabilized strain it's better to use several plants to avoid genetic accident (mutations, meiosis accidents, etc...)

to find what you want in a cross, a dozen plant is really few, specially before having stabilized at least a few desirabble traits
the F2 is the generation you should try the most plants (it can be done on several years) to find best chromosomes combinations (you could even get some traits already stabilized) , then you could reduce plant number at each generation
 
ZanderSpice said:
Nice discussion going on here. I've been wondering about pod selection when saving seeds. I usually save the best looking pods for seed and this year I've been saving my earliest pods too. I wonder if it makes any difference which pod you select if they all come from the same plant. As long as the pod is healthy does it matter if it was early in the season or if it has a nice shape? I'm thinking it would have the same genetics as the other pods on the plant unless the pollen changes during the season. Even if there's variability in the pollen would that influence the pod shape at all?
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i don't think pod shape have an influence on the progeny, it's more an environmental cause.
a lot of things can modify genes expressions or growth, but considering that the shape of the pod and the seeds it got are genetically different from other pods would mean a mutation had occured in a cell originating the branch or the flower or at least the ovary, and it's unlikely you could get several mutations on a plant (for each different pod shapes)...
but it doesn't hurt to choose good looking pods ^^
 
MrArboc said:
How do you avoid inbreeding depression if you want to keep a strain pure? Say an heirloom like Datil - or Scoch Bonnet TFM or Brain Strain? We isolate flowers/plants because we want to avoid cross breeding and encourage inbreeding.
Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure of your question. I believe inbreeding depression is basically the opposite of heterosis or hybrid vigour, when a cross is inferior to its parents although there's moe to it than that. You may not be able to avoid it with crosses but by growing many plants you can always choose the better plants or plant with more desirable characteristics including health and productivity
 
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