heat Seven Pod is the "World's Hottest" and it was developed by Amerindians.

ajdrew said:
On Carolina Reaper: I want to be clear about what I said.  I was responding to Spicegeist's apparent opinion that the Carolina Reaper is not a cross.  From what I can tell, he seems to think it is a 7 pot variety.  Essentially, I am saying that -IF- Spicegeist is correct I could see error rather than deception.

You are wrong about my opinion, so I'm not sure what you're asking or asserting by including me in your post.  I'd suggest you use the "quote" button if you really want to have a productive discussion with anyone in particular on here.
Spicegiest said: “I'd suggest you use the "quote" button if you really want to have a productive discussion with anyone in particular on here.”

I will use cut and paste because it is easier.
Spicegiest said: “All the "world's hottest" titles since the Bhut Jolokia should be rescinded.  The "world's hottest" is the landrace Seven Pod from Trinidad and Tobago and we have many generations of Amerindians to thank for this, they should get the credit if anyone should.”

On the first page of this discussion you present a chart I believe was from CARDI.  On that chart, a distinction is made between a Hybrid / Cross and a landrace.

It is my understanding that the Carolina Reaper has been shown by university study to be the hottest pepper in the world.  So it seems to me you are saying one of two things:

1) The Carolina Reaper is a type of "landrace Seven Pod from Trinidad" and NOT a hybrid / cross.
2) The university study is bunk and the Carolina Reaper is not the hottest pepper in the world.

You do obviously feel that the Carolina Reaper's Guinness Book title "should be rescinded".  Or am I not understanding that statement as well.

Please lets do have meaningful discussion.  In these quoted statements, what exactly do you mean?

My personal opinion is that the Carolina Reaper is a hybrid / cross between a 7 Pot variety and something along the lines of a Bhut or a Naga Morich / Dorset Naga.  My opinion is based on two things.  First, it looks like the 7 Pot Primo (we know that is a cross between 7 Pot and Naga Morich).  And also because the media has mangled and contradicted itself concerning what the cross was but the word 'naga' is most often in there.  I figure when they screwed things up, they probably got the one word right. Ye, I dont have a high opinion of the media.

Spiceguest said: "You are wrong about my opinion..."

That is why I said "apparent opinion".  You say something, I respond being sure to indicate I can not possibly know exactly what you mean.  It is how polite conversation takes place.  So now we are at the point where you clarify your opinion rather than just telling me I am wrong.  Lets have that meaningful discussion.

Do you think the Carolina Reaper should have its Guinness title taken away as you said?

Do you think the Carolina Reaper is a landrace seven pot or is it as Mr. Curry says a hybrid / cross?

If you think either of these things, I think you are incorrect.  However, if you think these things and are correct, I could see a person making an error in believing he had crossed two peppers because pollen is so very small and dna testing is so very expensive.  In short, I see the good in people and think they are generally honest... well unless they are in the media or lawyers.

This isn't a Reaper thread and I don't want to speculate about what that cross is, but I'll respond to you as it relates to the Seven Pod for the sake of clarifying. 
Sure, get your hands on the land race Seven Pod and you can play around with it, grow out a lot of plants, cross it with a Bhut Jolokia, grow, select, and so on.  You could do this in five or ten years.  My point in this thread is that apparently, for hundreds of years the Seven Pod has been kept going by indigenous people and they have received absolutely no credit.  The credit for the hottest should be given to these people who performed the bulk of the work, not someone who can get their hands on some land race varieties and then stabilizes a particular cross of these which have a SHU rating at the upper limit of what one would expect to find in these land race varieties.
Make sense?  If you want to speculate further about the reaper cross, this is the wrong thread.
Spicegeist, now I understand.  When you said that the hottest pepper in the world is a 7 Pot landrace, what you meant was that 7 Pot landrace was in the mix somewhere.  I did not previously get that from your post because the words landrace and hybrid denote different things.

You are spot on to observe that people seem to ignore the early refiners of landrace varieties.  Although I can not prove it, I think we tend to ignore the earlier cross creators.  Had a conversation here at THP once about ghost pepper and where it could have come from.  It seems obvious that the same landrace peppers were brought to India by the British, but how did it cross and create the ghost peppers?  Was it intentional?  Did the landrace escape captivity and cross on its own?  Do we have Brits or Bees to thank?

Making it so very odd is that there are Indian legends of super hot peppers that predate the British cultivators in that area. So did they change their myths or was it there earlier?  Come to think of it, how in the hell did cocaine find its way into ancient Egypt.

My personal thinking is that there was a great deal more going on in the world before Christopher Columbus than we generally think.  Hell, Vikings were in the New World about 500 years before the Spanish.  Why not someone before them?  Sure some early explorer could have found a super hot, said Damn, this is a practical joke waiting to happen and brought some home to screw with his kids.  Its shiny like candy, here have some.

Remember, this was before Childrens Protective Services and Family Court after all.


P.S. - Afterthought, if you have not already then give a google to: Headhunting Nagaland

Figure if you are keen on remembering that aboriginal Americans were raising the super hots you will love to read about what was going on in India where the naga was not just a pepper, but a god.  OK, maybe a god like being.
My preferred hypothesis on the bhut is that indentured servants from the Assam region returned home with Seven Pods they found while in Trinidad and Tobago and that these became Bhuts... here's the original post with more details:
Spicegeist said:
Some interesting tidbits from CARDI material*:
"Meanwhile in Trinidad and Tobago, the authorities are actively pursuing an intellectual property claim on the Scorpion variety."
Here's what that looks like:

Now, as for the Seven Pod, this apparently is a landrace variety:

Here's what these look like:

For those of you who don't know what is meant by landrace and so on:

Again, the Brainstrain and the Morouga we're talking about here are practically identical to the Seven Pod landrace.  There ought to be enough variation in landraces to account for the variation we've been seeing.  It seems then that the Scorpion was a selected Seven Pod, perhaps also the Bhut Jolokia is a selected Scorpion or Seven Pod?  Over 37% of the population of Trinidad and Tobago are of Indian descent and most sailed from Calcutta, very near Assam.
Here is some detail from a British indenture agreement from 1912, basically after five years of selling yourself into service in a colony such as Trinidad and Tobago, you could return home to India: "Conditions as to return passage-Emigrants may return to India at their own expense after completing five years’ industrial residence in the Colony."
IMHO, none of the "world's hottest" since the Bhut Jolokia (i.e. Trinidad Scorpion Butch T, "Trinidad Scorpion Moruga," and the Carolina Reaper) are significantly outside the normal variation you'd expect to find in a landrace pepper to warrant being recognized as something new.  Guinness World Records should recognize this and stop being duped by the latest greedy person seeking to receive the title of "world's hottest."
All the "world's hottest" titles since the Bhut Jolokia should be rescinded.  The "world's hottest" is the landrace Seven Pod from Trinidad and Tobago and we have many generations of Amerindians to thank for this, they should get the credit if anyone should.
*This is where the CARDI material was found:
Adams H, Umaharan P, Brathwaite R and Mohammed K. 2007, Reprinted 2011. Hot pepper production manual for Trinidad and Tobago: an output of the CARDI project “Improving the hot pepper industry of Trinidad and Tobago. St. Augustine, Trinidad and Tobago: Caribbean Agricultural Research and Development Institute. PSC #: TT/001/06.  Hot Pepper Production Manual for Trinidad and Tobago 2011 reprint
OK, but then the question is since the bhut jolokia was creating by crossing chinense with frutescens, was it intentional and if so, who did the crossing?  The official history books tell us both chinense and frutescense are New World discoveries.  As far as I know, Ghost Pepper was first observed in the Middle East.  So I kind of have to go with chinense and frutescense went to India separately and then were crossed there.

Oh but now we have a huge ass problem with the official history books.  Reference to the super hot naga type peppers, so hot they named it after a giant venomous snake deity, are prolific from before the British decided to start growing peppers there.  Reportedly, neither chinense nor frutescense were in the area at the time.  Certainly not a cross between the two. So how in the hell did they get there and who crossed them?

Gotta admit, it is one hell of a mystery.
Everything we've been taught about Native Americans is wrong, it's the American way.
I agree with the sentiment that the 7 Pot varieties should be listed as the hottest peppers and people should be done with it.  I do notice different burns between what I call the TMS and 7 Pots (TMS creeps and slowly builds, 7 Pots have a more violent, immediate burn) but that can easily be attributed to growing conditions and slight genetic variants.  What's being said in this thread makes perfect sense to me.  Just like the confusion between the Haitian Goat Pepper (or Piment Bouc) and the Bahamian Goat.  Probably the same pepper with slight variations yet as "collectors" we can make a big deal about how they aren't.  To date, the hottest pepper I've ever eaten was a 7 Pot Primeaux/Primo.
Also, I'd like to bring into the topic the "7 Pot Chaguanas" which from what I understand is from someone who posts/posted here or has contacts on this site, in a way it was a "landrace" type because it originated with generations of open pollinated 7 Pots.  I think maybe the guy's name was Stephen?  I'm not sure.
its nice to know the origins of the peppers and have someone who cares and document everything and name them according to their origin but that should be in the books, most people have already agreed with the name "trinidad moruga scorpion" and i dont think that CARDI or anyone else can do something about it, claiming that it doesn't exsist is completely wrong, calling it "trinidad moruga scorpion" is just gonna be a common mistake among common mistakes, the real name of the peppers and their origin should always be in the books but not always be used, If someone sold "Trinidad Moruga Scorpion" by a diffrent name i wouldn't buy it, even if it was CARDI or any other famous company.
Hi Ajdrew.
As per your statement " Ghost pepper was first observed in the Middle east" - Can you please elaborate more for further reading?
Am interested to know more.
Headhunting Naga here. eeeeeh
Marin, so you know about the Nagaland head hunters?  Most people think I am clowning about that. Nope, in fact there was something in the news not all that long ago about how the Japanese government was trying to retrieve the heads of various family members from India.  Heads that were taken in the 40s.  I guess there are still many Japanese heads unaccounted for.

On ghost pepper, it is kind of a weird thing.  Here in the West we seem to have just noticed the thing a decade or so ago.  I am sure some folk knew about it, but it wasn't exactly a common household name.  Today, fast food chains brag about using it.  Here is the thing, its dna is New World.  All I can figure is that when the Brits colonized the area, one of the thing they grew were spices they'd previously discovered in the New World.  But that makes no sense because the mythology of the area predates the British and i am fairly sure the mythology includes super hots.

Give a google to: Nagaland Head Hunters

If I am remembering right, they used super hots to simmer heads.  It helps to remove the flesh and cure the skull. 
Yes. I am a Full-blooded Naga, from Nagaland. Head Hunting did practise in Nagland and other parts of Northeast India, where skulls were collected as Territorial victory trophies. Later American missonaries in 1870's tranformed Naga people into new chistian era, where head hunting was slowly demolished. Still many earlier skulls collections are found in Northeast districts of Nagaland bordering Myanmar (northern). The Last Head hunter is still alive in his 80's belong to Konyak tribe.
There are notes on use of Naga king chilli during raid of ememies villages, where Dried chilli with other combustible materials were used as lachrymatory agents for easy head score. Again, I dnt have much knowledge of known usage of chillies for "simmer head". Other useage: The powder of Naga king chillies is in great demand for application on bare foot soles to keep warm in winter. Farmer’s uses Naga King chilli to smoke out foxes and rodents in fields
Regarding Japanese soldier heads, I have limited knowledge Still, Japanese soldiers entered Nagaland via Myanmar-Imphal-Kohima, Many Nagas volunteer during the WW-II and many J soldiers were killed, but collections of such as J skulls were never been told nor recorded.  Some of oral narration by our fore- fathers: Many J soldiers were killed in Body/Panji traps in thick forest where retrieval of dead J bodies were impossible.
I did read about articles on Head hunting in Borneo, East Malaysia, where tribes tragetted J soldiers during the WW II and J Skulls are still been on displayed. (Planning to visit Borneo soon, 'as seeing is beleiving. Eh)
Back to prior questions: It will be better if you get any notes or documentation of first observations of ghost chillies species in Middle East.  As India is known for diversified migrational people, which may link to this or that.
If there is anything, u want to know frm Me - Just fire away.
Cheers Buddy.
Marin, on simmering heads with ghost peppers, I checked my notes to find a reference for you.  Anthropologist J. H. Hutton wrote about it in 1922.  I ran into it at the Smithonian's web site.
“...women whose blood relations on the male side have taken a head may cook the head, with chilies, to get the flesh off.” - The Smithonian.

I don't know that ghost peppers would actually eat away at flesh.  Maybe the cooking was to get the meat off and the chili were a preservative to keep the finished product from stinking up the place.  Kind of neat to note the observation that it was not wives of the head hunters doing it but a blood related female: sisters, mothers..  I know I wouldnt hand a head to my wife and ask her to cook it up for fear of getting slapped.

On Japanese heads, I have a pre WWII Japanese sword.  Tang signed.  Ran into the head reference while trying to figure out where the sword came from.  Evidently, many of them are war booty from WWII.  Learned many were family blades and Japan would like them returned.  Somehow that turned into my learning the taking of heads was fairly common also.  Like the US working with Vietnam to have remains returned, Japan wants the remains of Japanese soldiers returned.  India was just one of many nations said to have Japanese heads. 

Back to the pepper itself.  What intrigues me to no end is that it appears in mythology of the Middle East and Asia despite the historic context that chinense is a New World discovery.  Even the name comes from a mistaken belief that the pepper comes from China.  If the pepper's DNA is New World and it was brought to India via the British how on earth could it have been there before the British?

As you pointed out, conversion to Christianity took place not long after the Western world found folk to convert.  I can not imagine the mythology that connected the peppers and the snake like deity being created after contact with the West.  So how on earth does the mythology of the pepper / deity seem to pre exist the conversion?

If I were to take a guess, I'd say naga chiles (bhuts, whatever...) are originally from India. They then made their way to the Caribbean along with the Indian people in colonial times, where they crossed with native Caribbean peppers and resulted in the superhots we are familiar with today from the Caribbean.

Again, just a guess...

Edit: After reading more of the thread, spicegeist's theory seems more likely to me. If superhots originated in India, I would think they would have been more well known and/or widespread long ago, where as Trinidad and Tobago are rather isolated so it makes sense that they would not be discovered by many people outside of the islands and well known.

I don't know... but I do know I need to go to bed.
Muskymojo, what you said brings up an important point.  The Europeans might have first discovered chinense in the New World but that does not mean that is where they originated.  Aboriginal Americans are thought to have migrated from Asia.  Maybe they brought something with them.  I have no clue but it is an amazing thing to speculate.  I wonder if the fossil record would help.

Thank alot for the insights. The Authur J H Hutton (1922).... at Chang village on processing head skull with chilli, I am not sure about that, But i dnt see any impact of chilli in terms of its Biochemical properties on the skulls in response to further disolve nor preserverd the flesh or skulls (Nor, I have heard of such oral narration). The head of the clan (Oldest person) in the village do also preserve Animal skulls but nothing of such in particular technique. (While typing this, I call back home to ask and confirm the statement)
There were many chillies varities grown in Nagaland during that era itself. But, It cannot be Naga King chilli/Bhut/Ghost chilli, because this chilli (Naga chilli) was stated only in one book so far and popularly used by one particular tribe in Nagaland and Myanmar and confined to landrace area, later it was propagated to rest part of northeast region in 1960's.
Limited notes on this chillies is due to its emergence in a remote regions, which also dispproves that this chilli migrational route via Assam via Madras to Nagaland. 
I might be wrong but, i have some speculation, ie- This King chillis is closely associated with Kuki Tribe (Bnei Menashe) living border to Nagaland, Myanmar and Bangladesh. They have very strong evidence on its long time cultivation and usage of these chillis throught out there migrational routes. And the Key point is the Bnei Menashe people living at the region are "Jews" they claim themself as one of the lost tribes of Isreal. They also claim the migrational route was via Silk route. So, was the chilli brought by them cross pollinated along the way. ????
A. Regarding J Soldiers head, only thing we can say is RIP, died in wrong place.
ajdrew said:
Muskymojo, what you said brings up an important point.  The Europeans might have first discovered chinense in the New World but that does not mean that is where they originated.  Aboriginal Americans are thought to have migrated from Asia.  Maybe they brought something with them.  I have no clue but it is an amazing thing to speculate.  I wonder if the fossil record would help.

No, they originated in the Americas. The archeological record is pretty clear. After the Columbian Exchange, they did spread pretty far but there wasn't some secret pre-existing pocket of the in India. The situation you posit is the least likely of all to have happened and has no basis in historical fact.

Remember also that the usual migration all pattern was up through Alaska and the people were Siberians, not from the Indian subcontinent. In order for these superhots to have miraculously come from India, they would have had to make their way up to Siberian herders, somehow grow them while herding, bring them while they traveled down North America and then transplanted them in the Carribbean, the site of their prime genetic diversity while leaving no naturalized patches between India and Central America. Occum's razor says they came from Central America, the result of millennia of selective breeding by the locals there.
Marin, that would be another great reason to wonder how ghost pepper dna got to Nagaland.  We tend to think Europeans brought it from the Americas for cultivation.  If that is what happened, it seems odd that the thing would be a landrace confined to a single tribe in Nagaland.  I would think those Europeans would have sold the product of their cultivation.  So where did the thing come from initially?  If the DNA started in the Caribbean, how on earth did it get to Nagaland?

See my boggle?

MarianneW, i was responding to Muskymojo who initially said he thought chinense migrated from India to the Caribbean rather than the other way around.  Instead of saying something like: "No, they originated in the Americas" I pointed to that being the most accepted belief but added: "I have no clue but it is an amazing thing to speculate." 

Care to speculate how Caribbean dna got to Nagaland before Europeans?
Perhaps you are underestimating the power of the import/export business in the 16th century. Not only were chilies quickly distributed throughout the whole world before the 17th c., tobacco, tomatoes and potatoes did also. They quickly became different landraces where ever they were imported. Apparently there were a lot of genes waiting to be exploited in what was exported from the Americas.
What ever may be there origin (Once wild), The place and environment did give the best out of it, its amazing to see Naga chilli plants grow in the wild like 11ft in height and also Tallest rice plant is also reported from Nagaland i.e 9 ft in height. Who Knows in near future we may have to climb chilli plants to pick the fruits. ehhh.
Marin, eleven foot?  Seriously?  Have been working on a pit house, partly underground green house hoping to grow year round.  I think I have to rethink my roof.

Hotstuff, ah wait... I think i follow your thinking.  The Brits brought the dna to India but the specific pepper that we now call the Ghost pepper was not grown by the Brits?  Instead, it found its own little niche?  Yes?  Still doesnt explain its position in mythology but oral history is easily told differently from one generation to the next.