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greenhouse Started on my Greenhouse
- Thread starter wordwiz
- Start date
As much as I worry about the next week or two, it looks like I am pretty much going to have to seal the house today. It was 38 outside and 41 inside this morning. I've tried running a 1500 watt heater but there are too many gaps and holes to allow it the heater to raise the temps more than about five degrees. And it is suppose to get colder this week.
Of course, I'm sure once I finally get everything closed, we will have Indian Summer. Yesterday, with mostly sunny skies for a while in the afternoon, it got up to 94 inside while outside it was 68. But as long as I don't have any blossoms, I figure the temps can go up to 110-120 for a few hours without any damage.
Mike
Of course, I'm sure once I finally get everything closed, we will have Indian Summer. Yesterday, with mostly sunny skies for a while in the afternoon, it got up to 94 inside while outside it was 68. But as long as I don't have any blossoms, I figure the temps can go up to 110-120 for a few hours without any damage.
Mike
I'm sure you already know this, but thought I'd share from personal experience-
What I found up here when I first starting growing in a greenhouse is that temperature variation is more damaging than either too high or too low of a temperature. I first started with just a wood frame covered in visqueen- when I finally had enough sense to put a thermometer in it, it was getting up over 110 in mid-afternoon and down to the low fifties at night. Killed damn near everything with that stupid oven. Now I try to keep the temperature range below 20 degrees, regardless what the span may be. For instance, if the night time low is 48 degrees, I set my exhaust fan thermostat for a daytime high of 68 and if the night time low is up to 65, I'll raise the exhaust fan thermostat so that the daytime high will be around 85.
I know that your immediate concern is the cold, and rightly so- but my bet is , as you stated earlier in the thread, that your biggest problem in the long run will be too much heat. I hope you are still planning to install a bigassed exhaust fan in the top side of that back wall some time this winter
Keep up the good work, I'm sure in no time there's going to be WizToms in every Cincy grocery store!
What I found up here when I first starting growing in a greenhouse is that temperature variation is more damaging than either too high or too low of a temperature. I first started with just a wood frame covered in visqueen- when I finally had enough sense to put a thermometer in it, it was getting up over 110 in mid-afternoon and down to the low fifties at night. Killed damn near everything with that stupid oven. Now I try to keep the temperature range below 20 degrees, regardless what the span may be. For instance, if the night time low is 48 degrees, I set my exhaust fan thermostat for a daytime high of 68 and if the night time low is up to 65, I'll raise the exhaust fan thermostat so that the daytime high will be around 85.
I know that your immediate concern is the cold, and rightly so- but my bet is , as you stated earlier in the thread, that your biggest problem in the long run will be too much heat. I hope you are still planning to install a bigassed exhaust fan in the top side of that back wall some time this winter
Keep up the good work, I'm sure in no time there's going to be WizToms in every Cincy grocery store!
Hinky,
Not exactly apples to apples but... in summer time, at least this summer, we had temperature swings of maybe 80 degrees if you measure the temps in the sun. Fifty-five of a night and 135 in the sun. I certainly do not want 130 degrees in the shade though a lot of what I have read is concerned with the soil temp, or in this case the water temp. It got up to 98 inside today and when I checked one of the maters, it was sorta wilted. But once the sun went down, it perked back up. And, more importantly, it has beautiful, thick, white roots growing from the stem.
I will have a fan in there in spring. This fall, I'll have to hope that just keeping the door open if/when we have Indian Summer is enough. One good thing is I don't have any plants with blooms or fruits trying to ripen so the possibly high temps won't really affect much, as long as they don't skyrocket.
Mike
Not exactly apples to apples but... in summer time, at least this summer, we had temperature swings of maybe 80 degrees if you measure the temps in the sun. Fifty-five of a night and 135 in the sun. I certainly do not want 130 degrees in the shade though a lot of what I have read is concerned with the soil temp, or in this case the water temp. It got up to 98 inside today and when I checked one of the maters, it was sorta wilted. But once the sun went down, it perked back up. And, more importantly, it has beautiful, thick, white roots growing from the stem.
I will have a fan in there in spring. This fall, I'll have to hope that just keeping the door open if/when we have Indian Summer is enough. One good thing is I don't have any plants with blooms or fruits trying to ripen so the possibly high temps won't really affect much, as long as they don't skyrocket.
Mike
It's getting down to nitty-gritty time. I ordered the IR film to cover the inside, set up my kerosene heater, am expecting cloudy days with temps in the mid to upper 30 soon and very soon. That will likely be followed by a week or two of days that have highs as much as the low 80s. But I am hoping that by this time Thursday, I have the back wall insulated and Mylar hung on it, the side walls having two layers of coverings (among glass, 13-mil plastic and vinyl) and the two pieces of the top covering taped together.
At this point, I am going to go out on a huge limb, one I have eyed but not measured and state what my goals are. Keep in mind, I have always been of the mindset that one reaches for the stars and settles for hitting the top of the highest trees. But I still want to reach these things, if the weather is close to normal.
The goal - for better or worse, made by a mad man or a man with a plan:
Harvest one ton of tomatoes while not spending more than $500 on heating bills (kerosene and electricity) by the 4th of July.
OK - I'm on record! 2000 pounds of tomatoes in what amounts to nine months, though none of the plants will produce anything before the middle of December.
I "would" offer to eat a Bhut if I don't make my goal, but I almost died from taking a bite of a paprika pepper - which apparently was the hot type. It's a mute point - I hope!
Mike
At this point, I am going to go out on a huge limb, one I have eyed but not measured and state what my goals are. Keep in mind, I have always been of the mindset that one reaches for the stars and settles for hitting the top of the highest trees. But I still want to reach these things, if the weather is close to normal.
The goal - for better or worse, made by a mad man or a man with a plan:
Harvest one ton of tomatoes while not spending more than $500 on heating bills (kerosene and electricity) by the 4th of July.
OK - I'm on record! 2000 pounds of tomatoes in what amounts to nine months, though none of the plants will produce anything before the middle of December.
I "would" offer to eat a Bhut if I don't make my goal, but I almost died from taking a bite of a paprika pepper - which apparently was the hot type. It's a mute point - I hope!
Mike
An update - I added insulation to the back wall and part of the front/bottom. Snagged a great deal - I bought and paid for regular R-13, 23" Kraft faced stuff but the guy couldn't find it in his warehouse. He did find a bag of R-19, foil faced stuff left over from a job, which he sold to me at the same price.
Got the back wall insulated and then covered with Mylar - what a huge difference - I kept turning the setting on the kerosene heater down, the outdoor temps kept dropping, and the indoor temp kept rising. I'm Plus 26 degrees and still am probably losing at least 33 percent of the heat, maybe 50 percent.
Keeping the temps up, or adjusting the pH or maybe something else seems to be helping with the hearts of the tomato plants turning yellow. They are slowly getting green again.
I ordered another roll of Mylar - I can't see any reason to let lots of heat out from some side windows when next to none light come in through them.
Mike
Got the back wall insulated and then covered with Mylar - what a huge difference - I kept turning the setting on the kerosene heater down, the outdoor temps kept dropping, and the indoor temp kept rising. I'm Plus 26 degrees and still am probably losing at least 33 percent of the heat, maybe 50 percent.
Keeping the temps up, or adjusting the pH or maybe something else seems to be helping with the hearts of the tomato plants turning yellow. They are slowly getting green again.
I ordered another roll of Mylar - I can't see any reason to let lots of heat out from some side windows when next to none light come in through them.
Mike
looking good !!
Things are moving along... and at a decent pace. Thanks to the insulation, I was able to raise the GH temps as much as 30 degrees and that is without any sunlight. I'm still losing bunches of heat - if I hit one of the top rafters very hard, I get a shower from all the condensation.
It did take nearly $6.50 in kerosene to heat it over the last 24 hours, which is $3.50 above acceptable levels. But, I keep turning the heater down and hopefully that will drop to about $4.50-5.50 tomorrow. This isn't all that bad, though - I still need to add another layer of film which should cut my heat loss by close to 50 percent. Not to mention that if I could get some sun, I could turn the heater off completely for 10, maybe 12 hours. Currently, it is 46 outside and 72 inside. Just as important, my CO meter sits at zero ppm though it doesn't register anything less than 30 ppm.
On a bummer note, I passed the Grand mark on total expenses. The vast majority, probably 90 percent, are one-time costs but still, that's a chunk of change I could have spent on buying cardboard tomatoes at the supermarket for $4/lb. this winter. I'll have to check around but I may well be able to sell my pickings for $1.50 per pound and have people lap them up. I know consumers will, but I need to be able to sell a business 25 or so pounds a week.
Mike
It did take nearly $6.50 in kerosene to heat it over the last 24 hours, which is $3.50 above acceptable levels. But, I keep turning the heater down and hopefully that will drop to about $4.50-5.50 tomorrow. This isn't all that bad, though - I still need to add another layer of film which should cut my heat loss by close to 50 percent. Not to mention that if I could get some sun, I could turn the heater off completely for 10, maybe 12 hours. Currently, it is 46 outside and 72 inside. Just as important, my CO meter sits at zero ppm though it doesn't register anything less than 30 ppm.
On a bummer note, I passed the Grand mark on total expenses. The vast majority, probably 90 percent, are one-time costs but still, that's a chunk of change I could have spent on buying cardboard tomatoes at the supermarket for $4/lb. this winter. I'll have to check around but I may well be able to sell my pickings for $1.50 per pound and have people lap them up. I know consumers will, but I need to be able to sell a business 25 or so pounds a week.
Mike
Yup ~ looks real good.
: )
: )
I'm on Cloud Cuckoo right now. I bought a 1250 watt ceramic heater (max usage, 1200 watts without the humidifier) and stuck it in the building this evening. Keep in mind, I still have enough air leaks to make a sieve look watertight, but it is 37 degrees outside and 56 inside.
Hopefully, I'm being realistic...
I still need to add a layer of IR film and some Mylar to the inside, as well as fill in some air leaks with caulking and add weatherstripping around the door. Then on the outside, use my $17 roll of perfectly clear, six-mil vinyl plastic to cover some windows. All of this should increase my heat retention - at a minimum - 40 percent. That would, in essence, mean than the outdoor temps can drop to about 20-22 degrees before I need to use any supplemental heat.
Lighting is another concern, at least in the future. To make is simple, I need at least 30,000 lux hitting the plant canopy on the shortest day of the year. Today, it was partly sunny and I was collecting about 40,000 lux, but that would translate to 35,000+ with the IR film.
One other aspect, (at the least - there are probably more!) is the CO2 level. Plants need that gas and in the middle of winter, inside a sealed GH, it gets depleted. I guess I could get a group together, have a shouting matching daily, and add enough. Or buy a CO2 generator (which isn't cheap). But, there is an easy, inexpensive way (at least according to Google) to create carbon dioxide - take some water, put sugar in it and add some yeast.
I don't know how well this will work, but my GH is pretty ghetto so far so why stop!
Mike
Hopefully, I'm being realistic...
I still need to add a layer of IR film and some Mylar to the inside, as well as fill in some air leaks with caulking and add weatherstripping around the door. Then on the outside, use my $17 roll of perfectly clear, six-mil vinyl plastic to cover some windows. All of this should increase my heat retention - at a minimum - 40 percent. That would, in essence, mean than the outdoor temps can drop to about 20-22 degrees before I need to use any supplemental heat.
Lighting is another concern, at least in the future. To make is simple, I need at least 30,000 lux hitting the plant canopy on the shortest day of the year. Today, it was partly sunny and I was collecting about 40,000 lux, but that would translate to 35,000+ with the IR film.
One other aspect, (at the least - there are probably more!) is the CO2 level. Plants need that gas and in the middle of winter, inside a sealed GH, it gets depleted. I guess I could get a group together, have a shouting matching daily, and add enough. Or buy a CO2 generator (which isn't cheap). But, there is an easy, inexpensive way (at least according to Google) to create carbon dioxide - take some water, put sugar in it and add some yeast.
I don't know how well this will work, but my GH is pretty ghetto so far so why stop!
Mike
Once you have a yeast mixture going, I don't think you need to buy more yeast either, just keep pouring most away (it's alcoholic, but prolly best not to drink it ), adding new water & more sugar (or flour?).
Great greenhouse by the way. Is it cheap to seal up the gaps with tap on both sides? or use spray expanding foam?
Alistair
), adding new water & more sugar (or flour?).Great greenhouse by the way. Is it cheap to seal up the gaps with tap on both sides? or use spray expanding foam?
Alistair
Lol, 1300 cubic feet... let me think...
A pint of warm water & a tablespoon of sugar & a tablespoon of yeast makes one inch of froth in about 10 mins... (this is how I make bread)
1 * pi * (3.25/2 *3.25/2) = 8.3 cubic inches = 0.0048 cubic feet
I therefore conclude that you need ~ 30,000 gallons of warm water, 3 tonnes of sugar and 3 tonnes of yeast to fill your greenhouse with CO2 in about 10 mins...
As you'll have all day, divide by 24*60/10 meaning 200 gallons & 20kg of each.
Now, how much of the volume of the greenhouse should be looking to fill with CO2? I'm guessing less than 100% but don't know how much
Hope this has been helpful (or at least entertaining
)
A pint of warm water & a tablespoon of sugar & a tablespoon of yeast makes one inch of froth in about 10 mins... (this is how I make bread)
1 * pi * (3.25/2 *3.25/2) = 8.3 cubic inches = 0.0048 cubic feet
I therefore conclude that you need ~ 30,000 gallons of warm water, 3 tonnes of sugar and 3 tonnes of yeast to fill your greenhouse with CO2 in about 10 mins...
As you'll have all day, divide by 24*60/10 meaning 200 gallons & 20kg of each.
Now, how much of the volume of the greenhouse should be looking to fill with CO2? I'm guessing less than 100% but don't know how much
Hope this has been helpful (or at least entertaining
)alistair,
Not that I don't trust your math
but I had a 28' circular swimming pool in which part of it was seven feet deep and it only held 23,000 gallons of water. 
In keeping with my ghetto theme, I'm thinking about using some kitty litter buckets. Drill a hole in the side at the top, add some sugar, yeast and water (and throw in a pepper or ten) then use a 1/4" soaker hose for the air tube. Run it along the ceiling rafters since the CO2 is heavier than air.
While typing this, the sun finally got around to hitting the GH. The temps went from 60 to 100 in about 20 minutes!
Mike
Not that I don't trust your math
but I had a 28' circular swimming pool in which part of it was seven feet deep and it only held 23,000 gallons of water. In keeping with my ghetto theme, I'm thinking about using some kitty litter buckets. Drill a hole in the side at the top, add some sugar, yeast and water (and throw in a pepper or ten) then use a 1/4" soaker hose for the air tube. Run it along the ceiling rafters since the CO2 is heavier than air.
While typing this, the sun finally got around to hitting the GH. The temps went from 60 to 100 in about 20 minutes!
Mike
looks grovy dude , smashing indeed.
Like Willard said, you'll get CO2 from heating with gas- I do believe one of our brothers from Canuckistan mentioned that he worked in a commercial greenhouse that used propane for CO2 generation. C.A.P. and others sell dedicated CO2 generators that are fueled by either LPG or propane but they're frigging expensive.
The yeast/sugar/water method works and is relatively cheap- lots of dope fiends do it. When using the proper recipe, you can get a batch to working that will generate CO2 for a week or two at a time- just use active yeast, regular white sugar, and water.
Here is a pretty basic instructable on building a small one. You could do one like this for each plant with a 'dripper' hanging over the plant or you could do one bigassed batch in a 5 gallon bucket with tubing run overhead.
I don't know what sort of return on investment you'd realize on a CO2 generator if you're going to have exhaust fans going though.
The yeast/sugar/water method works and is relatively cheap- lots of dope fiends do it. When using the proper recipe, you can get a batch to working that will generate CO2 for a week or two at a time- just use active yeast, regular white sugar, and water.
Here is a pretty basic instructable on building a small one. You could do one like this for each plant with a 'dripper' hanging over the plant or you could do one bigassed batch in a 5 gallon bucket with tubing run overhead.
I don't know what sort of return on investment you'd realize on a CO2 generator if you're going to have exhaust fans going though.
Hinky (and Willard),
If this season is close to successful, meaning I harvest 1,800 pounds of salable tomatoes by the time the ones in the garden are ripe next year, (that's an average of two pounds per plant per week once they start producing) then next year I won't hesitate to install propane heat. But I cannot realistically justify spending another $500 unless I see if this will work.
Mike
If this season is close to successful, meaning I harvest 1,800 pounds of salable tomatoes by the time the ones in the garden are ripe next year, (that's an average of two pounds per plant per week once they start producing) then next year I won't hesitate to install propane heat. But I cannot realistically justify spending another $500 unless I see if this will work.
Mike