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greenhouse Started on my Greenhouse
- Thread starter wordwiz
- Start date
Bought a 10,000 BTU kerosene heater today for $21.50. I was checking the amount of BTU needed for my greenhouse and if I can get the heat loss factor down to 20 percent - which should not be that hard using clear plastic and/or bubble wrap that will not cut down on the lux, I need less than 3,000 BTU to maintain a 55 degree room when the outside temps are 10 degrees. My electric heaters will provide at least 4100 BTU though they seem to produce a significantly higher temperature.
I probably will not get time to do it for quite a while - as in months - but I would like to build a passive solar heating system to use as a supplement. OK - in my dreams I envision black, 1" plastic tubing running along the ceiling and front wall. Water from a barrel is piped through it, with the pump set to run on a timer or maybe thermostat. During the day, if the sun is shining, water is run through the pipe, heated and returned to the barrel.
Hours later, when the sun goes down and the temps in the GH drop, another pump kicks on and circulates the water from the barrel through lines attached to radiators or something similar. I can also run the lines directly over the heaters (they stick out 1" from a wall) so they get more warm air.
On a side note, I stuck a tray of newly spouted tomato seedlings in the GH-to-be Sunday, two days after most of them had emerged. They love it. Double the size of what I experienced this winter/spring growing plants. I would guess they get about 96 percent of their light through the ceiling cover with the other 4 percent coming of an evening when the sun is low enough to shine directly on them.
I predict I am going to have a fun, although maybe busy winter!
Mike
I probably will not get time to do it for quite a while - as in months - but I would like to build a passive solar heating system to use as a supplement. OK - in my dreams I envision black, 1" plastic tubing running along the ceiling and front wall. Water from a barrel is piped through it, with the pump set to run on a timer or maybe thermostat. During the day, if the sun is shining, water is run through the pipe, heated and returned to the barrel.
Hours later, when the sun goes down and the temps in the GH drop, another pump kicks on and circulates the water from the barrel through lines attached to radiators or something similar. I can also run the lines directly over the heaters (they stick out 1" from a wall) so they get more warm air.
On a side note, I stuck a tray of newly spouted tomato seedlings in the GH-to-be Sunday, two days after most of them had emerged. They love it. Double the size of what I experienced this winter/spring growing plants. I would guess they get about 96 percent of their light through the ceiling cover with the other 4 percent coming of an evening when the sun is low enough to shine directly on them.
I predict I am going to have a fun, although maybe busy winter!
Mike
sounds like quite the project. I've been watching the progress so far and you have quite the vision. happy to see you're making it a reality! best of luck and I'll keep my eyes on you post.
How cold does it get in the winter where you live Wordwiz? In my area many vegetable greenhouses shut down for a couple of months in the winter when its coldest and hours of light are lowest. This eliminates a lot of insect problems, and heating and supplemental lighting costs. It seems you want a winter crop, but this involves starting at the worst possible time, when the hours of light are decreasing and the cold weather is increasing. I hope it all works out for you and I'm not trying to be negative, I just know how things work in my climate
Potawie,
In the words of Billy Joel, you may be right, I may be crazy!
On average, highs are in the low to mid 30s, lows in the low 20s. That's average. We usually get a blast of Arctic air that drops the temps to single or negative digits for a week or so. Our shortest day has nine hours, 24 minutes between sunrise and sunset.
I had good luck growing a tomato plant at the office last winter. In fact, it did better in March than in June thanks to the sun's angle. Plus, most of the plants will be varieties bred for cooler climates, so I will not need to keep the temps in the 80s.
Time will tell. If worse comes to worse, I will have an excellent place to start seedlings!
Mike
In the words of Billy Joel, you may be right, I may be crazy!
On average, highs are in the low to mid 30s, lows in the low 20s. That's average. We usually get a blast of Arctic air that drops the temps to single or negative digits for a week or so. Our shortest day has nine hours, 24 minutes between sunrise and sunset.
I had good luck growing a tomato plant at the office last winter. In fact, it did better in March than in June thanks to the sun's angle. Plus, most of the plants will be varieties bred for cooler climates, so I will not need to keep the temps in the 80s.
Time will tell. If worse comes to worse, I will have an excellent place to start seedlings!
Mike
An update, got some glass windows (between the two of them about 30 square feet) on one side, on the other got my glass door and a huge glass window. Both measure (or did, before a cut a bit off the bottom) 34.5" wide and 77" tall. Mostly glass except for the wood edges.
So far, about $325 in building expenses. That doesn't include the heater, hydro equipment, Mylar, plastic tubing, remote thermometer (which is great - doesn't even require line of sight) or stuff connected with growing. Insulation, even though I don't need that much is gonna be a nice bit of change. The stuff is outrageous now, close to $30/roll for R-19. I'm going to use R-30 but a guy I know is giving me a sweetheart of a deal on it. It's still gonna be over a C-note, though.
When all is said and done, I figure I will have about $700 in it, less than $600 without the insulation.
Whether it is worth it or not should come on Christmas Day in the morning. If I can pluck a ripe, red, large tomato from a vine, and see another 50 of them growing, I'll ho, ho, ho all day long!
Mike
So far, about $325 in building expenses. That doesn't include the heater, hydro equipment, Mylar, plastic tubing, remote thermometer (which is great - doesn't even require line of sight) or stuff connected with growing. Insulation, even though I don't need that much is gonna be a nice bit of change. The stuff is outrageous now, close to $30/roll for R-19. I'm going to use R-30 but a guy I know is giving me a sweetheart of a deal on it. It's still gonna be over a C-note, though.
When all is said and done, I figure I will have about $700 in it, less than $600 without the insulation.
Whether it is worth it or not should come on Christmas Day in the morning. If I can pluck a ripe, red, large tomato from a vine, and see another 50 of them growing, I'll ho, ho, ho all day long!
Mike
looks fun cant wait to see more llokin good wiz
wordwiz said:
Good luck with your project Mike. I hope it pays off for you.
One question. Why did you run the 4x8ft sheets horizontally instead of vertically so that the splice would happen on your uprights?
SS,
No particular reason except that I am not a skilled carpenter and the length between each post is not exactly 4' off-centered. The three 4x4s are close enough so there is plenty of "toehold" room for each 8' board. Also, we tend to get west to east or vice-versa winds so there are three posts all sunk in at least a foot of concrete (and buried 18" deep) to help stabilize them.
Not sure there is a method to my madness or just a mad method!
Mike
No particular reason except that I am not a skilled carpenter and the length between each post is not exactly 4' off-centered. The three 4x4s are close enough so there is plenty of "toehold" room for each 8' board. Also, we tend to get west to east or vice-versa winds so there are three posts all sunk in at least a foot of concrete (and buried 18" deep) to help stabilize them.
Not sure there is a method to my madness or just a mad method!
Mike
Ordered my thermostat - and ramblings!
I figure one of my biggest challenges with the GH is managing temps. This is Cincinnati where if you don't like the weather today, wait until tomorrow - it will be completely different. Not so much true in summer and winter but in the spring and fall - a big concern. It might be 28 degrees in the morning one day and the next day 68 in the afternoon. The GH has to compound the problem because of the heating caused by so much sunlight entering.
The goal is to maintain temps no lower than 55 degrees of a night and no higher than 82 degrees of a day - over that and I will have to manually open the doors if the heaters have kicked off! (I'll have to deal with middle of summer temps - maybe install an AC?)
Yes, I have a dream, one that I doubt will ever become reality but I sure as heck know it won't if I don't embark on the road. It is to own or manage a GH in Cincy - a very large one encompassing acres, not square feet - that produces tomatoes and other veggies the year-round.
The goal is 1/2 pound of tomatoes per square foot of GH area, per week, once the plants are large. Right now, I am getting a bit over 100 pounds per week from 180 sq. ft. in my garden and several of the plants are not contributing their fair share, plus a GH and hydro is suppose to be more efficient.
I don't know if I can do this, but I can guaran-dam-tee you that if I don't at least try it, I won't.
Up to my laboratory to transplant some seedlings!
Mike
I figure one of my biggest challenges with the GH is managing temps. This is Cincinnati where if you don't like the weather today, wait until tomorrow - it will be completely different. Not so much true in summer and winter but in the spring and fall - a big concern. It might be 28 degrees in the morning one day and the next day 68 in the afternoon. The GH has to compound the problem because of the heating caused by so much sunlight entering.
The goal is to maintain temps no lower than 55 degrees of a night and no higher than 82 degrees of a day - over that and I will have to manually open the doors if the heaters have kicked off! (I'll have to deal with middle of summer temps - maybe install an AC?)
Yes, I have a dream, one that I doubt will ever become reality but I sure as heck know it won't if I don't embark on the road. It is to own or manage a GH in Cincy - a very large one encompassing acres, not square feet - that produces tomatoes and other veggies the year-round.
The goal is 1/2 pound of tomatoes per square foot of GH area, per week, once the plants are large. Right now, I am getting a bit over 100 pounds per week from 180 sq. ft. in my garden and several of the plants are not contributing their fair share, plus a GH and hydro is suppose to be more efficient.
I don't know if I can do this, but I can guaran-dam-tee you that if I don't at least try it, I won't.
Up to my laboratory to transplant some seedlings!
Mike
If you could obtain several 55 gallon drums (preferably plastic) and fill them with water their thermal mass would help a lot in reducing temp swings. A row of them down the center or along the back wall would also provide a platform for a work bench or plant shelf.
I believe I'd go with a large shuttered intake fan on one end and exhaust on the other for summertime temp control over costly AC. They could be controlled with a thermostat and even the addition of misting when needed would be more economical than AC.
I believe I'd go with a large shuttered intake fan on one end and exhaust on the other for summertime temp control over costly AC. They could be controlled with a thermostat and even the addition of misting when needed would be more economical than AC.
SS,
I was just kidding about the AC! The reason for adding the door (besides to get in and out) and the windows at the opposite end is so I can remove the windows and open the door, I may still need to use a box fan on one wall to suck air in and out but I'm realistic - if the ambient temps are 95 degrees, it's gonna be hard to keep the GH cool (except using AC).
The water barrels - lots of thoughts about them. They have to be in direct light - so no bench over the top. Plus, they take up a lot of room, space I would rather dedicate to buckets of water growing plants. One thought I have had is to find a water heater. Run a pump with some hose back and forth in places in the GH that will not interfere with lighting, such as the back wall. Circulate that water so it gets as hot as it can during the day. After the temp drops below a certain level, the pump cuts off. The when it gets cooler, another pump kicks in that will draw the water from the tank and circulate it through mini radiators located around the base of the GH. If that water temp drops below a certain temp, the pump shuts off.
Or, I can dig a hole into the center of the earth and let the heat from the core keep the GH warm, though filling it in in summer may be a pain!!!
Mike
I was just kidding about the AC! The reason for adding the door (besides to get in and out) and the windows at the opposite end is so I can remove the windows and open the door, I may still need to use a box fan on one wall to suck air in and out but I'm realistic - if the ambient temps are 95 degrees, it's gonna be hard to keep the GH cool (except using AC).
The water barrels - lots of thoughts about them. They have to be in direct light - so no bench over the top. Plus, they take up a lot of room, space I would rather dedicate to buckets of water growing plants. One thought I have had is to find a water heater. Run a pump with some hose back and forth in places in the GH that will not interfere with lighting, such as the back wall. Circulate that water so it gets as hot as it can during the day. After the temp drops below a certain level, the pump cuts off. The when it gets cooler, another pump kicks in that will draw the water from the tank and circulate it through mini radiators located around the base of the GH. If that water temp drops below a certain temp, the pump shuts off.
Or, I can dig a hole into the center of the earth and let the heat from the core keep the GH warm, though filling it in in summer may be a pain!!!
Mike
wordwiz said:
You'll be surprised how well fans combined with misting cool, especially if the water is supplied from a well.
wordwiz said:
The barrels don't need to be in direct light. They serve as a thermal mass to help limit temp swings. During winter maybe a few with insulated blankets could also serve as your heat storage reservoir for your circulation system.
Your water circulation idea is good, but for storing heat I would only have the pump come on after the water in the hose has reached your target temp and only on long enough to empty your heat collector hose into your insulated storage and repeat again after the hose reaches temp. Continuous circulation to store heat isn't as effective.
Silver_Surfer said:
Good, make that great, advice, if I can find a thermostat to accomplish this. My idea was based on what a rocket scientist (seriously - he was my backyard neighbor and worked for NASA helping to design rockets!) gave me regarding heating a rather large pool using solar panels. His suggestion was to use a smaller pump that wouldn't move much water per hour but I like your suggestion better. Ideally, the thermostat that controls the pump to add hot water would kick on when the water temperature in the tubing is say 5 degrees warmer than the water in the tank, then kick off when they are equal.
This will be fun to play with!
Mike
You might look into using a Johnson Controls a419 thermostat to control a pump. The way they work is simple- they go inline on the power chord and interrupt the power supply to whatever 110V device you're using to heat or cool. You can adjust the unit's range as well as set point. They cost about $54 if you dig for 'em, check HVAC supply stores. I'd set it up for cooling and put the thermoprobe in the solar panel- when it gets hot it empties out into your reservoir until the incoming cooler water would chill the thermoprobe to the point of shutting off the pump. Or you could set it to heat and put the probe in your reservoir, although I'd think that would be less efficient as you'd have to hope your span could be tight enough as to keep up with the thermal mass of the reservoir, meanwhile you'd be wasting energy by overheating your panel.
Or you might could use a set timer intended for a hydro setup- they're generally preset for 1 minute on, 4 minutes off. That'd be a little ghetto but hey, it'd work most of the time if you were to fiddle with the size of your reservoir and the size of your panel.
Or you could look into setting up a thermosyphon passive solar setup. If the collector is set lower than the reservoir and all liquid is purged from the system, it will naturally pump to reach equilibrium.
Take a look at this setup- while truly ghetto, this sort of a setup proves the theory and is actually quite useful and would be even more useful with a few minor tweaks and better sealing of the panel.
This is an even better setup that uses corrugated plastic as the collector. I think this could make a pretty efficient setup though you'd have to spend some money unless you are quite the scrounger. I know that the corrugated plastic sign board is available already dyed black which might be better than the white stuff- it comes in bigass sheets and is readily available most everywhere (it's what ALL political signs are made of) fairly cheap. I've heard people claim that it's not protected against breakdown by UV, but a quick search for Coroplast shows that to be yet more internet baloney.
So yeah, looks like we're still sorta thinking along the same lines
Or you might could use a set timer intended for a hydro setup- they're generally preset for 1 minute on, 4 minutes off. That'd be a little ghetto but hey, it'd work most of the time if you were to fiddle with the size of your reservoir and the size of your panel.
Or you could look into setting up a thermosyphon passive solar setup. If the collector is set lower than the reservoir and all liquid is purged from the system, it will naturally pump to reach equilibrium.
Take a look at this setup- while truly ghetto, this sort of a setup proves the theory and is actually quite useful and would be even more useful with a few minor tweaks and better sealing of the panel.
This is an even better setup that uses corrugated plastic as the collector. I think this could make a pretty efficient setup though you'd have to spend some money unless you are quite the scrounger. I know that the corrugated plastic sign board is available already dyed black which might be better than the white stuff- it comes in bigass sheets and is readily available most everywhere (it's what ALL political signs are made of) fairly cheap. I've heard people claim that it's not protected against breakdown by UV, but a quick search for Coroplast shows that to be yet more internet baloney.
So yeah, looks like we're still sorta thinking along the same lines
Moving along, but not in areas that are seen. Got the back wall covered with plastic until I can get roofing shingles on it. The plastic drapes across the top enough to insure a couple of inches of overlap with the cover so I don't get any water dripping in. Next week I hope to build the base the polycarb panels will sit on - they need to be treated as moisture that condenses in the walls needs to drain. Very minute amounts, but since the cost of treated 2x4s is a buck-two thirty-nine more, it seems worthwhile. I should also have all the base walls up but not insulated and some gaps in the side walls covered.
Alas, I'm afraid I will need to dig up my onions (finished growing) and carrots (still growing), as I want to lower the "floor" about three inches to 10 inches and need to do this before I get the walls finished.
Not sure "thankfully" is the right adverb or not, but I don't have any plants to stick in it yet - the seedlings are a good three weeks away from being large enough to move to hydro buckets. I hope to start off with about 30-32 plants, then add two plants each week until I fill the GH. I hope to grow 48 tomato plants.
More as the days progress.
Mike
Alas, I'm afraid I will need to dig up my onions (finished growing) and carrots (still growing), as I want to lower the "floor" about three inches to 10 inches and need to do this before I get the walls finished.
Not sure "thankfully" is the right adverb or not, but I don't have any plants to stick in it yet - the seedlings are a good three weeks away from being large enough to move to hydro buckets. I hope to start off with about 30-32 plants, then add two plants each week until I fill the GH. I hope to grow 48 tomato plants.
More as the days progress.
Mike