Starting a Lacto starter

[Heisenberg]

So I've fermented using whey with mixed results. I've moved to lacto probiotic pills, but things seem slow. The thing with the pills, it says x millions of active cultures, but they can't be active as they are dry pills and would not be alive without a source of moisture and nutrients. Lactobacillus is a spore forming bacteria however, which is what I think these pills contain. Basically when conditions are favorable, the spores develope into active culture forming bacteria. So here's what I want to do. I want to inoculate a nutrient medium containing 2% NaCl solution, sucrose, and bit of vinegar to lower the pH below 5. I will inoculate using the pills (spores), and keep this culture at 37C for 24hrs. I'll take some samples and check under the microscope for bacterial growth. If this kick starts the spores, I'll use it as my starter. I'm basically attempting to make my own starter culture similar to the white labs cultures you can buy... short of having to buy theirs all the time. I basically want a hardy culture as a starter that will get things moving immediately.

Thoughts?

 

[RocketMan]

Interesting idea you have. When I home brew I use some wort to start my yeast in so I wondering if a vegetable based starter might not be a better medium to start it in. Would be interesting to try a side by side using your mix next to say something like some V8 juice. Something like 1 pulved pill into 1000 ml of solution held at 85 to 90 dF. Checked at maybe 12 hour intervals?

 

[chsy83]

Interesting idea you have. When I home brew I use some wort to start my yeast in so I wondering if a vegetable based starter might not be a better medium to start it in. Would be interesting to try a side by side using your mix next to say something like some V8 juice. Something like 1 pulved pill into 1000 ml of solution held at 85 to 90 dF. Checked at maybe 12 hour intervals?

 I like the V8 idea!  I would suggest 8 hr or shorter intervals, due to prokaryotic duplication rates are quite faster than eukaryotic dupe rates.  I wish I had access to a good microscope, so I could reinforce your data.

 

[Balac]

Sugar is always a good idea---everybody likes to consume it. I think you should do fine.
 
But like Rocketman says WRT beer wort starter it would be better with a starter that the bacteria are grown in and eat---Like milk.
 
I would throw in some full fat milk in a solution and compare how it does.

 

[hot stuff]

IDK, I've had nothing but success using some greek yogurt I left out over night and draining it.  Used about a teaspoon of whey and shake the bottle once a week for a month then whenever I think about it over the course of the year.  Come fall, it's about 3.5ph.

 

[Heisenberg]

The main thing I'm trying to accomplish is the speed at which the bacteria really get going.  When I did 5 jars of habanero mash all using whey, they all got the same amount of the starter, 3 took off after about 3 days, of the other 2, one fermented very slowly, the other pretty much not at all.  About 4 days ago I started one garlic and one shallot jar, both using a crushed up lacto pill as starter.  I expected the shallot jar to take off like a rocket since onions have a good deal of sugars, but for 4 days nothing but small bubbles....until today.  Now the shallot jar has taken off.  The garlic still isnt really doing anything. 
 
I figure if I can kick start them and get the into an active replication stage, then introduce them into whatever veggie mash, then hopefully they would already have a head start.  The reason I was thinking of doing the 2%NaCl, sucrose, and vinegar is from a paper I read dealing with growing conditions of acidophilus.  The 2% would be a bit gentler than the 3.6% it will eventually be bathed in, but high enough that some other bacteria wont like it.  The sucrose is readily metabolized by the L acidophilus as opposed to say, dextrose....and I dont know if I will be able to find powdered lactose sugar at a local store...would have to order it.  I'm leery about using milk as a source of lactose since the second I add the vinegar, it will curdle...not to mention it may get funky after a month of fermenting, even though it would be a small amount.  Lastly with the vinegar, a small amount would do, lactobacillus thrive in a pH below 5.
 
Most importantly though, I want to make sure that whatever medium I use to get the lacto going, that it doesnt impart any taste into the mash.

 

[RocketMan]

I wouldn't let the slow garlic jar get to you, garlic has some anti microbial properties to it. When I started mine I had other thing added and used additional starter to give it a boost.

 

[Heisenberg]

So I took some samples and made slides to look at the relative number of bacteria.  For the pills, I crushed one up and hydrated with an isotonic saline solution. 
 
This first pic is of the pill, I was shocked to see active bacteria and not just spores.
 

 
 
This next one is of some whey that I had left in the fridge from when I had used it as a starter.
 

 
 
Then I took the 2 and incubated at 37*C for 2 hrs.  This next is the pill after incubation.  As you can see there appears to be an increase in the number of bacteria in the field.
 

 
 
Finally here is the whey after the 2hr incubation.  Most of the bacteria seems to be caught up in the protein (ie casein) which has coagulated after warming.  Although you can see some bacilli, the majority appears to be chains of cocci, which are very likely Streptococcus thermophilus, which is a common probiotic additive to yogurts along with the lacto.
 

 
 
Its nearing the 24 hour mark for the incubation of the probiotic pill (L acidophilus + L rhamnosus) in my simple nutrient medium.  Macroscopically the solution went from offwhite and cloudy, to a yellowish cloudy mixture.  Hopefully this is a good sign and will have good growth when I check it out tonight.  Will post pic/update on that one tomorrow.

 

[Jamison]

Holy shit Heisenberg, mad scientist! Very interesting. Might sound stupid but where do you get the lacto pills. GNC, walgreens, cvs?

 

[Heisenberg]

I'm in Canada, but it shouldn't matter. I got mine at Walmart in the vitamin section of their pharmacy. You could probably get them really at any pharmacy. There are different kinds but some have other probiotic bacteria with the lacto. I opted for the one that only has the 2 strains of lactobacillus.

 

[Jamison]

Ok cool, thanks for the info! Love these interesting threads.

 

[Jeff H]

We have a local vendor who sells natural fermented cabbage (hippie food dept so TB probably loves this stuff) with more than enough liquid in the solution to borrow as much as I need for starters. The last time I used it was for some sriracha. only a tsp was added and I only let it ferment for a week and the pH was plenty low and it tasted great. I'll use it for my kimchi creation later this month too. Super easy.

As I understand it, the reason yogurt whey is hit or miss is because it isn't really the right type of lacto for fermenting veggies, but instead is more geared towards dairy products.

 

[Sawyer]

Interesting thread.  Following.
 

The reason I was thinking of doing the 2%NaCl, sucrose, and vinegar is from a paper I read dealing with growing conditions of acidophilus. 

 
Do you have a link to that paper?

 

[Heisenberg]

Do you have a link to that paper?

 
 
I was just googling around looking through info on its nutritional requirements and the types of polysaccharides that it will ferment when I had come across that paper, but I dont remember what my exact search string was and I cant seem to find it.  If I do come across it again Ill post the link.
The medium I used consisted of:
 
2g NaCl in 100ml boiled water (2%w/v)
1 tblsp sucrose (table sugar)
1 tblsp white vinegar (5%)
Dissolve and let cool
1 crushed probiotic lacto tablet
Incubated 24hrs @ 30-37*C
 
 
So after 24 hours of incubation in my simple nutrient medium, here are the results:
 
 
You can see that there appears to be a greater number of healthy looking large bacilli in the field.
 

 

 
Now, I knew going in that the amount of replication would be nominal, since my medium contained very little nutrients the bacteria would need to replicate.  I really only had the sugar for it to feed on, and that was more to 'wake them up'.  Making a proper nutrient medium would require adding ingredients like beef stock, milk, blood extracts, etc....that the bacteria of interest could feed on and obtain all the growth requirements it needs.  But as I said, my main goal is to just get things started without adding anything that will affect the taste of the mash.  When I tested the supernatant of the culture medium, it did have low levels of lactate, which shows the bacteria were active and starting the fermentation process.  The true test would be to see if it increases the speed at which fermentation starts after being added to a vegetable mash.  So I took 1 tblsp of the culture and added it, along with 1 tblsp of table sugar, to the jar of garlic mash that hasnt had much action.  The table sugar was added just as a taster for the bacteria to help it by giving a simple sugar for it to start feeding on.  We will see if things get going in that jar.

 

[Sawyer]

Not to hijack your thread, but Homesteader's Supply has a sale this month on their Veggie Fermenting Culture.

 

[impending_bending]

Nice post. I considered doing a little project like this myself but never got around to it. Are you going to pursue this topic any further? The literature leaves something to be desired, especially in the context of pepper fermentation...

 

[Heisenberg]

Not to hijack your thread, but Homesteader's Supply has a sale this month on their Veggie Fermenting Culture.

 
Not at all...if something works and its cheap, then its good to get the word out.
 

Nice post. I considered doing a little project like this myself but never got around to it. Are you going to pursue this topic any further? The literature leaves something to be desired, especially in the context of pepper fermentation...

 
Right now Im just playing around with it, trying to see what works.  I added some to a garlic mash that seems to be slow going, and not much improvement, and its been going for a week now total.  2 days ago I added some of the incubated culture/pill/medium to some cayenne mash that I started, and Im seeing action already.  As Rocketman stated, garlic must have some antimicrobial properties to be going so slow.  I think that another key to getting things moving is temperature.  I made a incubator box out of a cooler which is up against a heat register, but that only comes on intermittently and for short burst.  I would ideally like to start off a mash by putting the jars into a 37*C waterbath for at least a day.  Lacto likes it at human physiological temps.  Now to find a decent waterbath without spending a fortune.  I should see if my work has any old used ones in a closet somewhere that they would let me snag.

 

[Halbrust]

Any thing more on this Heisenberg?