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cooking Why cook a fermented sauce?
- Thread starter Jase4224
- Start date
Low pH inhibits the growth of c.botulinum but does not destroy toxins. Botulinum toxin is temp sensitive and is destroyed when heated over 85c/185f for min 5min.
In other words, it's much needed safety. Also cooking kills spores of the most common European strain of Botulinum (B, Type I). Added safety as low pH is not a guaranteed measure against botulisme. There are rare incidents of botulism in food with pH <4. Unfortunately you still risk issues with other strains of botulism like A, B type II and others as they need 121c/250f. So it's not the fix, but extra safety can't hurt. Botulism in ferments is rare, but can occur.
In other words, it's much needed safety. Also cooking kills spores of the most common European strain of Botulinum (B, Type I). Added safety as low pH is not a guaranteed measure against botulisme. There are rare incidents of botulism in food with pH <4. Unfortunately you still risk issues with other strains of botulism like A, B type II and others as they need 121c/250f. So it's not the fix, but extra safety can't hurt. Botulism in ferments is rare, but can occur.
Sizzle Lips
Extreme Member
A lot of people also like to add extra ingredients after the ferment has taken place to add more flavor profile to their sauce....people add fruit,spices and sugars for flavor and sweetness after and the cooking process helps break things down before a couple trips through the blender.
yes those are all true and if you dont cook it you wont be able to bottle unless your making bombs!!! They will continue to ferment building pressure till they explode not fun! By cooking you kill the lacto so the fermentation process is no longer active.
You dont have to if your going to keep it in the fridge and just use as you'd like. I keep a jar in mine great for your gut!!! But to bottle it's a must!!!
cheers
No not really much of a flavor change but after processing and bottling i do allow the sauce 20 to 30 days to age before i use or distrib to friends and famliy. This rest period allows the sauce to meld the flavor actually gets better.
You dont have to if your going to keep it in the fridge and just use as you'd like. I keep a jar in mine great for your gut!!! But to bottle it's a must!!!
cheers
No not really much of a flavor change but after processing and bottling i do allow the sauce 20 to 30 days to age before i use or distrib to friends and famliy. This rest period allows the sauce to meld the flavor actually gets better.
If it is fully fermented, you don't have to cook it for sanitary purposes. You may want to stop fermentation but really I've never had a problem with it, though I tend to ferment for at least 6 months.
You may want to break down the cellular structure to have a smoother sauce or like someone else said, you've added fresh ingredients which have not been fermented and carry nasties with them into the sauce.
Tabasco does not cook their sauce, though they do dilute it by 50x's.
You may want to break down the cellular structure to have a smoother sauce or like someone else said, you've added fresh ingredients which have not been fermented and carry nasties with them into the sauce.
Tabasco does not cook their sauce, though they do dilute it by 50x's.
Interesting, whilst I'm thinking that cooking is the way to go.. I have never cooked a ferment before. I have always fermented pepper mash with 3% salt for a couple of months then added 20% vinegar and put straight into a bottle and in the pantry, no cooking, no explosions, no getting sick..oldsalty said:
I would like to stop fermentation and a have read that adding the 20% vinegar does just that, but I'm unsure of the facts. In my experience it certainly seems to since I've never had an exploding bottle.hot stuff said:
Does the salt/vinegar content not guarantee safety of the sauce against infection? If it doesn't then I'll cook.
My concern with cooking is that it may destroy some of the 'freshness' of the flavour profile. Then again it might enhance the overall flavour and I might prefer it lol
Savinared thanks I will probably keep a batch in the fridge now!
Low pH is not a guarantee that botulism can't occur. It certainly helps (a lot) but there are recorded cases of botulinum surviving low (as in <3.8pH, the generally accepted safe level).Jase4224 said:
There are a bunch of variants of Botulinum types. Not all will kill humans. Most of them create spores that need 121c/250f to be killed off, including some that are dangerous for people.
Under stress (i.e. acidic, alkaline, drought etc) the bacteria is triggered to create spores. A survival gimmick.
You have to understand though that botulinum prefers low oxygen environments with high protein levels. So a chili ferment is not the most ideal environment. But people also live on Antarctica, so botulism also happens to ferments.
So if you Cook it;
You kill the botulinum bacteria
You kill some of the spores
You destroy botulinum toxin (if you have it)
You stop the ferment
After which the low pH
Inhibits the spores to create bacteria
Works as a fungicide after opening
Yes, it might alter the flavor. It can be less tasty or better tasting. Botulism is rare, but personally I prefer to stay safe. Everyone should unserstand the risk and choose for themselves. If you ferment commercially or give it to other people I'd rather not take the risk.
Regarding the tabasco comment; they might not cook it, but I'm pretty sure they invested a bit more in hygiëne, full scale labaratories and legal advisors than the average chili head on THP.
Just my 2 cents..
Sorry no disrespect just trying to get my head around it alloldsalty said:guess ya missed my post about keeping some in the fridge and processing the restas SR pointed out ouch!
Thanks for clearing all that up. I will be sharing my sauce so.. cooking it is. Better safe than sorry!Pfeffer said:
True that. Cooking does not necessarily mean bad flavor. Some times it really helps with bringing out certainly flavors. Mostly because the flavor blends better. It prevents some herbs/fruits from becoming overpowered. But exactly that can also be the negative side if you want certain flavors to stand out.
Let us know how it turned out.
Let us know how it turned out.
My concern is that the 'fresh fruity' flavours of certain pepper varieties may be altered or lost completely. I'm growing 40+ varieties to find specific and unique flavours, if I cook the sauce and lose those flavours it would be a bit of a bummer!
Example would be tomatoes, they totally change when cooked, their flavour goes from fruitier to meatier if that makes sense.
Example would be tomatoes, they totally change when cooked, their flavour goes from fruitier to meatier if that makes sense.
I second the stopping the fermentation vote. Just because you've never had a sauce explode doesn't mean it won't. My honey and I have argued for years about poking holes in baking potatoes. He had never had one explode. Until it did while he was changing out laundry. Didn't notice until the smoke started pouring out of the oven.
Especially if giving them away...do you want to be "that guy"?
Especially if giving them away...do you want to be "that guy"?
I preface this by saying that it is Just My Humble Opinion.
Personally, I would never put, a sauce of any kind that wasnt properly Hot Packed on my shelf nor would I give any away. There is just too big of a chance that something could go wrong and someone gets sick or dies. Just not worth it. Now, there are things available through your local Home Brew or Wine making store that will allow you to do it safer than just trusting to Ph. Potassium Sorbate and Potassium Metabisulfite are 2 chemicals used in the wine making industry to help keep the nasties at bay. They are also used some in Pickles. If you add them once your ferment is complete they will stop the fermentation process and work to keep nasties from getting into it. And it doesn't take very much. When I made a 5 gallon batch of mead I used like 0.5 grams of Potassium Sorbate per gallon and 1/4 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite for the whole 5 gallons. The drawbacks, there are some who have allergies to these chemicals and If you use them you won't be able to call your sauce "all natural" or "Organic" as these are not in the list of ingredients allowed by the FDA for inclusion in them.
Again, this is just my opinion based on reading I have done. Take the word and advice of professionals like salsalady who have certifications and have had training on proper procedures for bottling low acid foods before me.
Cheers,
RM
Personally, I would never put, a sauce of any kind that wasnt properly Hot Packed on my shelf nor would I give any away. There is just too big of a chance that something could go wrong and someone gets sick or dies. Just not worth it. Now, there are things available through your local Home Brew or Wine making store that will allow you to do it safer than just trusting to Ph. Potassium Sorbate and Potassium Metabisulfite are 2 chemicals used in the wine making industry to help keep the nasties at bay. They are also used some in Pickles. If you add them once your ferment is complete they will stop the fermentation process and work to keep nasties from getting into it. And it doesn't take very much. When I made a 5 gallon batch of mead I used like 0.5 grams of Potassium Sorbate per gallon and 1/4 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite for the whole 5 gallons. The drawbacks, there are some who have allergies to these chemicals and If you use them you won't be able to call your sauce "all natural" or "Organic" as these are not in the list of ingredients allowed by the FDA for inclusion in them.
Again, this is just my opinion based on reading I have done. Take the word and advice of professionals like salsalady who have certifications and have had training on proper procedures for bottling low acid foods before me.
Cheers,
RM