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chinense Carolina Reaper and Pepper Stabilization

Sad thing is, Ed and Joe did a good enough job in marketing that even with the crappy results a lot of people are getting, it's not going to stop the ball that's been rolling and by then, the pepper will prob be better stabilized lol wtf

Only thing I know for sure is Ed's reputation has taken a death blow to me (and prob. Most every other knowledgable grower) sucks but that's the way he rolled the dice...
 
In the Dominican Republic they don't put faces on their dolls. I asked a resort worker there why and she told me because they were all mutts. I find it hard to believe that you are going to get 90+ out of 100 of these mutt superhots to look identical. F8 or not,I'm not that naive.

Seed mix ups,bad intentions,crosses,$$$,etc.... they all factor in. A lot of times it's an innocent mistake,or lack of knowledge. Someone buys seeds of a particular chile and it grows untrue,they trade it with 20 people of differing experience. They call it by the name they bought it as,or name it something new,both bad decisions IMO but they are free to do that. I try to match up anything I grow with the original. I don't save seeds from stuff that doesn't grow to be what I consider true,or consistantly put out pods that look true.

I bought Reaper seeds and they germminated fine and are putting out pods that are consistant. Consistant meaning they all are similar sized,have bumpy,spiky,pebbled skin,and some have tails. I am not impressed with the vigor of my specific plant,and won't be keeping seeds.
 
At this point it has got to be about liability, if you admit it is unstable, then refunds should be in order, all around.

deniability
 
Just to throw out my 2 cents. I agree that you have to define what traits you are aiming to stabilize. I think if Ed was aiming for consistent heat levels, it would have been smart to define that up front, because to most of us, stability means pod size, shape, texture, and heat. That might have saved him all of this headache.
 
I would consider 90% uniform pods stable, but then you have to define uniformity. You could be really strict and say the pods must be within 1% variance in size, or heat or you could say 20% is acceptable. Color, shape and texture are a little more obvious, but even harder to define quantitatively.
 
Using TS Butch T as an example (since it's stability was called into question as well) , last year I took semi-random samplings of 100 pods throughout the year and I think over the course of the year I had an average of 83% that fit MY definition of what Butch T's should look like. I consider that relatively stable. Given another observer, they might only classify 40% of them as Butch T's, because it is all very subjective. From what I have seen so far this year, my first round of Butch T's will be NOWHERE near 83%, it is looking more like 40%, but they haven't been harvested yet. All the seed came from either isolation, or were left over from the original seeds that I purchased from Neil. They are in a different spot this year, and the weather is the complete opposite of last year, so maybe it is just environment conditions, hard to say.
 
TL:DR -- Criteria for stability must be defined before you can accurately measure stability.
 
theghostpepperstore said:
 
From what I have seen so far this year, my first round of Butch T's will be NOWHERE near 83%, it is looking more like 40%, but they haven't been harvested yet. All the seed came from either isolation, or were left over from the original seeds that I purchased from Neil. They are in a different spot this year, and the weather is the complete opposite of last year, so maybe it is just environment conditions, hard to say.
 
TL:DR -- Criteria for stability must be defined before you can accurately measure stability.
Click to expand...
I have two overwinters that are putting out pods that look nothing like they did last year. The weather this year is a complete flip flop from last. I also have a plant that is putting out the exact same pods as last year,but has different colored/shaped leaves and flowers. It was isolated for seed also.
 
Thanks for weighing in, Guru.
 
Last year, I grew Corno De Toro peppers that were supposed to be sweet but were :hot:
 
This year, I grew a tomato variety that gave me all kinds of different fruits none of which were like what I ordered.
I saved the seeds because I am curious to see what genetics are in there.
I also contacted the seller privately and my money was refunded promptly.
 
Variety is the spice of life
 
:onfire:
 
:2 cents:
 
Pepper-Guru said:
Plant structure, vigor, prolificacy, leaf shape, pod shape, pod color, flavor, and heat.

In no specific order really, just that all the aspect be there given repeatable conditions.
Click to expand...
 
I am interested in how you would measure vigor and prolificacy, these seem like two that would be really difficult to control all of the variables. I am not saying you are wrong, just trying to figure out a good measurement.
 
What about leaf size? There was a topic about the Douglah and 7 Pot Brown and I remember someone saying they could tell the difference by leaf size. I have always found that leaf size on Chinenses can be widely variable depending on environment.
 
theghostpepperstore said:
 
I am interested in how you would measure vigor and prolificacy, these seem like two that would be really difficult to control all of the variables. I am not saying you are wrong, just trying to figure out a good measurement.
 
What about leaf size? There was a topic about the Douglah and 7 Pot Brown and I remember someone saying they could tell the difference by leaf size. I have always found that leaf size on Chinenses can be widely variable depending on environment.
Click to expand...
 
 
there'd still be some standard under a set condition. Just because another grower doesn't get the same results because of their condition. Each grower has his own sets of standard things they do which under a semi controlled/consistent environments you can breed for it.
 
I believe leaf size is mostly based on age and growing conditions from what I've seen.
 
You guys are worring about the peppers, I'm worried about the entire plant at this, I purchased a pack of cr seeds last year too, 80% sprouted and all looked diseased, I have 2 alive, and out of 100+ plants they are the most stunted, and worst plants I have by far, they are all on the same drip system




They look like they have chicken pox, I'll be lucky if I see a single pod
 
 
Just to throw out my 2 cents. I agree that you have to define what traits you are aiming to stabilize. I think if Ed was aiming for consistent heat levels, it would have been smart to define that up front, because to most of us, stability means pod size, shape, texture, and heat. That might have saved him all of this headache.
 
I would consider 90% uniform pods stable, but then you have to define uniformity. You could be really strict and say the pods must be within 1% variance in size, or heat or you could say 20% is acceptable. Color, shape and texture are a little more obvious, but even harder to define quantitatively.
Click to expand...
 
Thing is the method he was using to test was bound to get more stable results for heat testing -- He was taking a large lot of pepper pods and grinding them all up together and then testing the heat level -- So of course the heat rating is going to be more consistent than testing single pods of others like most testing that had been performed -- the reason he was pushing the consistency of the heat level is he probably knew the thing was not stable yet and expected the variations in the shapes etc. and figured pushing the consistent heat level would be harder to challenge, since he could then say the testing was flawed unless you tested the same way he had and if the test results still did not match his results he could argue the growing conditions must have been off in your land or climate. It's all about making some $ - which is even more evident know that his lawyers are getting involved and threatening anyone that grows them and tries to sell pods or seeds or anything mentioning the name without some sort of contract sharing the profit !!
 
Yes, considering that it might be difficult to get enough dried material from a single pod to have a valid test, the method is flawed by its nature. The testing of all varieties is going to be an "average" of all the pods going into the test. The same will be true when I submit pods for testing in a couple of months. Of course, I actually want to know the average across the harvest, it is meaningful data, it just needs to be used in the correct context.
 
For the record, I agree that there were definitely some shenanigans going on, but I will refrain from speculating on the motivations.
 
F1 - Uniform
F2  - 50% genetic consistency
F3 - 75% genetic consistency
F4 - 87.5% genetic consistency
F5 - 93.7% genetic consistency
F6 - 96.8% genetic consistency
F7 - 98.4% genetic consistency
F8 - 99.2% genetic consistency
F9 - 99.6% genetic consistency
F10 - 99.8% genetic consistency
F11 - 99.9% genetic consistency
 
After self pollinating, each subsequent generation reduces the amount of "unlike genes" in half until they are virtually all removed.  If an F6 is crossed with one of the other plants in the 3.2% then the next generation is starting back again at F1.  It may look the same and have the same genetics overall but the next generation will have a ton of genetic variation as it is only F2 again.
 
Pod shape varies a little based on weather and growing conditions, but overall it is consistent.  You won't get a bhut-shaped pod on a scorpion regardless of growing conditions.  Two totally different genes.
 
In the case of the Carolina Reaper it really can't be an F8 like they claim.  We would only see a few people having odd throwbacks in pods/plants/heat rather than the incredibly large variation we are seeing.  It looks like something was crossed in the F5 or F6 like my example rather than self pollinating.
 
I think you hit it right on the head with these few words right here.....standards,and expectations.
Doesn't matter what product you produce...The ultimate goal in any "transaction" is to get something of value to you, in the best possible way,without hiccups. So why blame the source of the production? Especially with it being so new....As a consumer you also have to educate yourself,or end up with lots of disappointments. I am new to the pepper side of things,but I'm not new to being a consumer.
 
 Everyone remember when the Iphone first came out? I do,because I chose to wait one year after hearing the release date. Why? Well I was brought up in a very tech savvy home. Had my first computer at the age of 6-7? So over the years I've seen lots of "cutting edge tech gear"(also having worked in that type of field for 10 years)come and go. I knew it was going to change how we used phones,media,tv,everything....but I also know companies spend BIG $$$ on research and development,along with Quality Control,and Quality Assurance. Wait a sec? Quality Control,Quality Assurance? You mean they put out a product that needs constant monitoring,fixing,and even changes? The first year I had about 4 friends say the iphone was the biggest joke,after buying one...Within 2 years(new contract again?) They all switched back over and got newer iphones. Some even touting Apple as the Best Company EVER(they were the ones that also bought4-5k desktops just to check emails,which is another silly consumer fail for another discussion). 
 
Now how does this have anything to do with peppers? Well here's how I see it,and like I said..I'm still new to peppers. Very topical view
Some pepper comes outta the wood works.....THIS IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICE BREAD!!!!
Marketing ensues,interests peak....Smoke and mirrors,more smoke and mirrors...more marketing magic...Bam you've created a monster...
Now insert your expectations ....you only know what has been told to you..maybe lies? Truth? Who knows? So now you educate yourself(hopefully)
As a consumer you have to educate yourself with: What will I get,What do I expect,what was I promised.
One thing Alabama Jack taught me from day one...."Never tell anyone what a seed is,if you've never grown it. Even then exercise caution. I only give,trade,exchange seeds I've grown myself,and its usually from seeds I've grown to my standards, over a period of time."
Until you do it yourself, you never really know what it truly is.....
 
Ohhh and now insert Mother Nature....
I'm not saying the consumer is right,or the producer is right...I'm merely pointing out this was a NEW cross,and we could only assume what they told us was true....but at the same time, I can't expect to believe everything I hear?
As a consumer, I have to decide numerous things....I won't go into explanation of this,because well its just silly,and I've rambled enough!
 
 
Now on that note...I have some AquaFina straight from the Mountains Ice caps for sale....actually I lied..its just tap water with an aquafina label ;)
That's exactly what AF did, why can't I? Well because me personally..I have a consciences.
 
These are just my opinions
 
homefry319 said:
 
 
 Each grower has his own sets of standard
 
Click to expand...
 
 
poypoyking said:
F1 - Uniform
F2  - 50% genetic consistency
F3 - 75% genetic consistency
F4 - 87.5% genetic consistency
F5 - 93.7% genetic consistency
F6 - 96.8% genetic consistency
F7 - 98.4% genetic consistency
F8 - 99.2% genetic consistency
F9 - 99.6% genetic consistency
F10 - 99.8% genetic consistency
F11 - 99.9% genetic consistency
 
After self pollinating, each subsequent generation reduces the amount of "unlike genes" in half until they are virtually all removed.  If an F6 is crossed with one of the other plants in the 3.2% then the next generation is starting back again at F1.  It may look the same and have the same genetics overall but the next generation will have a ton of genetic variation as it is only F2 again.
 
Pod shape varies a little based on weather and growing conditions, but overall it is consistent.  You won't get a bhut-shaped pod on a scorpion regardless of growing conditions.  Two totally different genes.
 
In the case of the Carolina Reaper it really can't be an F8 like they claim.  We would only see a few people having odd throwbacks in pods/plants/heat rather than the incredibly large variation we are seeing.  It looks like something was crossed in the F5 or F6 like my example rather than self pollinating.
Click to expand...
I sure most understand F1 is a cross of two different strains, giving the seeds genes pretty much 50% of the mother and 50% of the father, but a F20 could be just as unstable as a F2 if who ever breeds then doesn't pick the right Parent/s if you look at any F be 1 or 20 isn't still nothing more then a cross.    Genetic consistency can be achieved only if the genes selected can be stabilize or    Homazygous but picking genes that can't not be stabilize or heterozgus buy what the breeder selects for.    So lets say the pod shape you want is controlled by two different genes  Make it easy Gene A and Gene b  so the pods you like are Ab when breed to Ab you get unstable pods out of the seeds as there going to show AA Ab and bb, so it might not be so much a bad breeder as a bad pick in pod shape to stabilize in the first place.    
 
There is a difference between genetic stability and a trait stability.  Some traits take very long to be come stable as they are carried by recessive genes.  
 
I agree from what I have seen and heard that the worlds hottest pepper might not be what growers consider stable.  
 
Its silly to not say this is the breeders doing, the ability to cultivate the traits you want and understanding them are what separates a good breeder from a bad.  
 
Genetics are genetics if the breeder wants the exclusive rights to the good he also has to take the exclusive rights for the bad of his product.
 
Over time inbreeding populations (such as peppers and tomatoes) want to become completely homozygous.
 
If you breed dominate pod shape A with recessive pod shape b the F1 pod shape will be the dominant A (though genetically it will be Ab).  The F2 will show 25% AA, 25% Ab, 25% bA, and 25% bb.  So 1 in 4 plants should have the pod shape you are looking for.
 
If you pick bb for the pod shape subsequent generations will stabilize into the bb pod shape as long as you keep selecting that trait.  So in the F2 you pick the recessive bb pod shape.  The F3 will produce the bb pod shape on all of the plants.  A recessive plus a recessive nets a recessive.  Once a recessive trait is captured all subsequent offpsring will carry that trait if it is self pollinated.  I am not saying there aren't any but I haven't seen a pod shape gene that is not homozygous.
 
BadPants said:
There is a difference between genetic stability and a trait stability.  Some traits take very long to be come stable as they are carried by recessive genes.  
 
I agree from what I have seen and heard that the worlds hottest pepper might not be what growers consider stable.  
 
Its silly to not say this is the breeders doing, the ability to cultivate the traits you want and understanding them are what separates a good breeder from a bad.  
 
Genetics are genetics if the breeder wants the exclusive rights to the good he also has to take the exclusive rights for the bad of his product.
Click to expand...
 
IMO it's silly to expect perfection when were talking about breeding .  Trait and genetic stability are one in the same, as if you don't have genetic stability you never can have trait stability as with out one you can never have the other.  Breeding F matting Ie F1, F2, F3,   is the worse way to ever try to get genetic stability of any of the ways to breed as you start with a cross F1 and no matter what you never have anything but a genetic cross.   
 
Genetics will never be as easy as 1 + 1 = 2  as it's more like 80,000 x 80,000 = 640,000,000 
 
 

 
 
If you breed dominate pod shape A with recessive pod shape b the F1 pod shape will be the dominant A (though genetically it will be Ab).  The F2 will show 25% AA, 25% Ab, 25% bA, and 25% bb.  So 1 in 4 plants should have the pod shape you are looking for.
 

Right but if the 1 in 4 pod you like still is not the right gene paring no matter how many generations you pic for it will still always be unstable. 
 
Just my opinion from looking at the pod pics most looked fairly reaper like and the few that didn’t I think were affected by the environment not enough heat or humidity or maybe soil nutrients out of 10 seeds/8-10 plants you should have consistency in at least one. Baker’s pods looked great had good heat and good taste if you believe the video reviews it did not make financial sense to burn them this year after spending over $100 on seeds and growing them for months….and many of his customers probably would have loved a cheap or free pod.
 
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