Can these guys be controlled with predatory mites if a local source was available
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finally.. some answers to my pepper issues
- Thread starter KiNGDeNNiZ
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I don't know if you mean to do it or you simply don't realize it QQ: Your forum posts regularly condescend and insult others. This behavior almost cost us a venerated forum contributor recently - all so you could shout out loud about how smart you are on an internet forum. It's just not necessary or valuable input for this community, and I urge you to walk a better, less condescending and more welcoming path. Everyone knows you're intelligent. Time to show em you can be nice too. 
/derail
Best of luck with next year's grow KD.
/derail
Best of luck with next year's grow KD.
James. I don't know at thus point if I will... sure I can grow more and treat. But if I miss I'll only be feeding them more. .. better to hold off and treat what I can ...then once clear start growing again....
KiNGDeNNiZ said:
You mean queequeg and miguelovic? You'd probably have better luck using a joint. Or a rake - if the thread infestation really gets out of hand.
...so, we have a population of pests. Assume 1% of their population exhibit resistance to a pesticide, and that the genetic trait is recessive....
The pesticide is applied, and Prodigal Son's recommendations (post#16) are ignored.
The "purebred" mite population, reduced to a mere 1% of its former population, quickly rebounds (two weeks, perhaps?), and, like Miguelovic said, the pesticide's effectiveness is reduced.
That supports the remark that Smokemaster made: that repeated usage will reduce effectiveness of a pesticide.
Personally, i think any thread that offers Smokemaster's experiences, Miguelovic's earnest research and Prodigal Son's IPM techniques has got to be a good read.
This is educational, and i'm grateful for the info. Thanks.
The pesticide is applied, and Prodigal Son's recommendations (post#16) are ignored.
The "purebred" mite population, reduced to a mere 1% of its former population, quickly rebounds (two weeks, perhaps?), and, like Miguelovic said, the pesticide's effectiveness is reduced.
That supports the remark that Smokemaster made: that repeated usage will reduce effectiveness of a pesticide.
Personally, i think any thread that offers Smokemaster's experiences, Miguelovic's earnest research and Prodigal Son's IPM techniques has got to be a good read.
This is educational, and i'm grateful for the info. Thanks.
Strangely the one I had from last year made it and has gone through 2 seasons on this issue. I have another that made It through this years...MAFWIZ said:
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/crop-inputs/d-s-cole-growers-six-tips-for-releasing-predatory-mites/KiNGDeNNiZ said:
you are constructing a situation that supports a pre supposed hypothesis. the fact is, it does not work that way.mikeg said:
anything that does not kill 1% of a particular pest, is simply not an effective pesticide.
mites reproduce sexually. any immunity conferred by a selective pressure will only survive if its also conveys some advantage in natural environments as well.
where pesticide resistance comes into play is where you have ungodly huge farm, hundreds of acres, and spray the same pesticide over and over, without any rotation. even still, this process takes thousands of generations of insects, and likely decades of time.
there are very few organisms that exhibit any sort of ultra fast evolution like this, the only ones that come to mind are the staph bacteria. they did experiments on agar that had sub lethal doses of anti biotics added, after like 16 weeks, some of the populations show resistance or outright immunity. whats the difference between a mite and a staph bacterium? A reproductive rate that's like 2 orders of magnitude slower.
im a nice person, i really am. not lieing here.SmokenFire said:
whenever i poke fun, its either in jest( as in my first replay) and im trying to be funny, or its because some bullshit bomb just dropped. Or if someone else is being a dick to myself or others.
yea rotation is the practical solution. however, id like to reiterate that rotation will just not be necessary outside of very big operations. very big farms have their own very particular mini ecosystems.
if you are so inclined, you should read about the management strategies they are using with BT corn.its very interesting.
in a nut shell... because they cannot change the pesticide, and because BT corns been around for going on two decades now... they have resorted to inter planting with NON bt corn plants.
these non BT corn plants act to maintain a non BT resistant population of insects. the non resistant population interbreeds with the resistant populations and controls the spread of the gene.
the same thing will happen in a small garden, where applications are not frequent enough or wide spread enough to prevent outside genetic material from diluting the gene pool of any resistant pests.
it would be interesting to see how this all plays out in a hypothetical greenhouse environment where this effect would be limited or non existent. in this case, if by chance you had a very small population of resistant bugs introduced into a non resistant population then yes they would spread the resistant genes rapidly as you suggested.
but, developing that resistance in the first place? it would take a long time, or a lot of luck.
edit: here ill post some of the above info in case others are interested.
i initially heard about this on a podcast, where they delved into the subject in detail... however i cannot for the life of me recall where or what podcast that was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9w6wTj2L3g#t=53
http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/pages/role-of-refuge.aspx
http://www.monsanto.com/products/pages/refuge.aspx
just google bt resistance management.
if you are so inclined, you should read about the management strategies they are using with BT corn.its very interesting.
in a nut shell... because they cannot change the pesticide, and because BT corns been around for going on two decades now... they have resorted to inter planting with NON bt corn plants.
these non BT corn plants act to maintain a non BT resistant population of insects. the non resistant population interbreeds with the resistant populations and controls the spread of the gene.
the same thing will happen in a small garden, where applications are not frequent enough or wide spread enough to prevent outside genetic material from diluting the gene pool of any resistant pests.
it would be interesting to see how this all plays out in a hypothetical greenhouse environment where this effect would be limited or non existent. in this case, if by chance you had a very small population of resistant bugs introduced into a non resistant population then yes they would spread the resistant genes rapidly as you suggested.
but, developing that resistance in the first place? it would take a long time, or a lot of luck.
edit: here ill post some of the above info in case others are interested.
i initially heard about this on a podcast, where they delved into the subject in detail... however i cannot for the life of me recall where or what podcast that was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9w6wTj2L3g#t=53
http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/pages/role-of-refuge.aspx
http://www.monsanto.com/products/pages/refuge.aspx
just google bt resistance management.
queequeg152 said:
Thats funny! cause I keep getting the urge to lash out at you, for being a dick to others. Namely some of the most important members here. That have earned and deserve respect. I think you spend so much of your time in your computer or tech device studying, that you dont have any real world experience. Or even know how to act around people, you're detached. Its because of people like you and PMD, that some of the best growers on here choose not to participate in the grow forums. And in that sense, you take far more from this sight than you contribute. And if you really are smart, you'll adjust your manners with senior or high valued members.
Predatory mites are offered as a solution to this particular pest, but I would prune and destroy any twisted/heavily distorted growth prior to application.
Something I also see, from cannabis to peppers to greenhouses, is that a large percentage of growers do not take in to account environment. Beneficials have a much greater chance of success when RH and temperature are within their prime range, and this usually correlates to a disadvantage for the pest. If you can not control the environment re: outdoors, try to find the bug that best suits your conditions.
Periodic misting provides hydration to the mites when pest levels are declining, improving performance, and raising RH within the canopy. If you're dealing with a larger scale operation, supplemental feeding can increase effectiveness and maintain populations after the pest is controlled. Although as mikeg has pointed out, any predator on a spoon fed diet will lose their aggressive tendancies.
Just some random rambling observations.
I can't tell if you're talking to quee or myself without the quote reference
I generally enjoy queequegs perspective, he provides an intelligent voice on the other side of the tracks re: conventional/natural and his presence/influence makes me fact check what I think I know. Not so much when he's jumping down the throat of some imaginary boogeyman made of compost and hippy tears
Oh yeah, and that greenhousegrower link is great. I love the DIY applicator.
Most conventional pesticides do have a 100% kill rate when properly applied. Enter the bumbling grower, who alters, improperly mixes and combines pesticides with little regard for approved use. There are so many of them in California and the newer medical states (including Canada), that they are rapidly creating TSSM, thrips, broad mites, etc, that require increasingly stronger doses to effect control. Literally tens of thousands of microclimates breeding pesticide resistant bugs on a scale and complexity unseen before. And of course, the large majority of these people are highly aware of the environment, disposing of packaging and spray refuse in a safe manner...
Hah, a wee puff with the cafe and I get all chitty chatty.
Something I also see, from cannabis to peppers to greenhouses, is that a large percentage of growers do not take in to account environment. Beneficials have a much greater chance of success when RH and temperature are within their prime range, and this usually correlates to a disadvantage for the pest. If you can not control the environment re: outdoors, try to find the bug that best suits your conditions.
Periodic misting provides hydration to the mites when pest levels are declining, improving performance, and raising RH within the canopy. If you're dealing with a larger scale operation, supplemental feeding can increase effectiveness and maintain populations after the pest is controlled. Although as mikeg has pointed out, any predator on a spoon fed diet will lose their aggressive tendancies.
Just some random rambling observations.
hogleg said:
I can't tell if you're talking to quee or myself without the quote reference
I generally enjoy queequegs perspective, he provides an intelligent voice on the other side of the tracks re: conventional/natural and his presence/influence makes me fact check what I think I know. Not so much when he's jumping down the throat of some imaginary boogeyman made of compost and hippy tears
Oh yeah, and that greenhousegrower link is great. I love the DIY applicator.
Most conventional pesticides do have a 100% kill rate when properly applied. Enter the bumbling grower, who alters, improperly mixes and combines pesticides with little regard for approved use. There are so many of them in California and the newer medical states (including Canada), that they are rapidly creating TSSM, thrips, broad mites, etc, that require increasingly stronger doses to effect control. Literally tens of thousands of microclimates breeding pesticide resistant bugs on a scale and complexity unseen before. And of course, the large majority of these people are highly aware of the environment, disposing of packaging and spray refuse in a safe manner...
Hah, a wee puff with the cafe and I get all chitty chatty.
I had quite good luck with a single release of a predator some years ago in the greenhouse for control. The release was
about 2004, and I have had no mite issues since. I believe the predator I released was Amblyseius andersoni which is marketed by Hydrogardens for controlling the pest mentioned above. As I recall, the pest that remains within galls on the
plants will not be attacked, so the older plants will still look (and are) damaged. However, you can slowly prune out the galls. The insect predators of mites, as well as the ones I released for aphids were all one time purchases, well worth
the investment since they have worked now for years keeping the greenhouse clean of serious pest damage. I've found the
Hydrogardens folks very good to talk to; you'll have to decide if the investment in the predator is worth it: do you have an all-year growing area where the predators can live?
Renais
about 2004, and I have had no mite issues since. I believe the predator I released was Amblyseius andersoni which is marketed by Hydrogardens for controlling the pest mentioned above. As I recall, the pest that remains within galls on the
plants will not be attacked, so the older plants will still look (and are) damaged. However, you can slowly prune out the galls. The insect predators of mites, as well as the ones I released for aphids were all one time purchases, well worth
the investment since they have worked now for years keeping the greenhouse clean of serious pest damage. I've found the
Hydrogardens folks very good to talk to; you'll have to decide if the investment in the predator is worth it: do you have an all-year growing area where the predators can live?
Renais
You suck lol!!! Yes I live in socal. Prime for year round growing along with pests
At rob...
So do you
At rob...
So do you
Umm don't think avid is legal in California. ..