I love my guns

[Weed]

YES, it does I suggest you discuss it further with a state prosecutor.

 

 
Your personal decision to pick up a box of hollow points rather than a box of solid points has what to do with the manufacturer?

 

[solid7]

Your personal decision to pick up a box of hollow points rather than a box of solid points has what to do with the manufacturer?

Enough with the tangents. A modification of factory rounds will definitely get you your day in court. What would otherwise be a "justifiable" act, would, for the reason of a modified round, get you a special chair in front of a jury, while the deceased's relatives put on their best, "he was a good boy" act.

I used to have a friend who was a defense attorney, and saw something very similar played out. It doesn't matter if they win or not, but it is draining to you. If you want to cut a cross, and make a fragmenting round, though, be my guest... Experts know best, after all.

 

[Weed]

Enough with the tangents. A modification of factory rounds will definitely get you your day in court. What would otherwise be a "justifiable" act, would, for the reason of a modified round, get you a special chair in front of a jury, while the deceased's relatives put on their best, "he was a good boy" act.

I used to have a friend who was a defense attorney, and saw something very similar played out. It doesn't matter if they win or not, but it is draining to you. If you want to cut a cross, and make a fragmenting round, though, be my guest... Experts know best, after all.

 
Well I have a friend who is a Supreme Court Justice and she says your friend should be disbarred.

 Shooting range, yes. Simulated killing? NO way.

 

 
 
Since Shurb is busy moving now I thought I'd quote these 3 sentences so that maybe you'd see how little sense you make.
 

 
 But for the record, there is no distinction between "life threatening animals" and "home invasion".

 
Well there must be if there is a difference between a modified round and a hollow point.

 

[Jeff H]

YES, it does I suggest you discuss it further with a state prosecutor.

I made no mention of hand loaders. I refereed to the intentional modification of a factory round that was designed to a specific thing and you (you) referring to the modifier, altered  the projectile to do something other than what the projectile was initially intended. A discussion on a forum is not really worth my time to dig up actual case documentation. Anyone is free to do what they want to the ammunition they carry. but remember this, when you are finally faced with actually pulling your weapon and are forced to discharge that weapon for whatever reason. is it really worth having the tables turned on what should be a justifiable use of arms into a premeditated escalation of trauma and intended increase of inflicted pain to the perp of the initial crime? your money, your life, your decision.

 
Drawing a parallel with hand loading seems like a logical leap since it is very easy to modify the cartridge if you are the one assembling it. I see this discussion played out more on hand loading forums then anywhere else.
 
I'm not really following what you're saying about people modifying factory ammo. What are they doing? Drilling a hole in ball ammo to try and make a hollow point? On top of a live primer and powder??? How stupid is that.

 

[AlabamaJack]

well, if it's the case of me vs him/her/them in my home, I had rather have 6 trying me than 6 carrying me...thank god for the castle law here in Texas....

 

[solid7]

Since Shurb is busy moving now I thought I'd quote these 3 sentences so that maybe you'd see how little sense you make.

I'm sorry that you failed in that. You aren't even quoting similar thoughts in the same context. Unless you've somehow hidden it so that only you can understand it.

Well there must be if there is a difference between a modified round and a hollow point.

You make no sense at all. It was simply stated that in the mind of the courts, there is potentially a difference between a purchased round, or a modfied round. With nothing left to argue, a defense attorney WILL attempt that angle. Store bought bullets don't betray any intent. How can you prove any harmful intent - other than the expected - from a box of bullets that somebody bought right off the shelf, after all? Intentionally modifying a round for maximum carnage does. It shows that you put some thought into what you were doing. (even to the point of premeditation)

This isn't a question of legality. It's a question of stupidity. If you live in a state that affords you the luxury of exercising your right to defend yourself, why not just waste a couple more rounds? Why play Dirty Harry? Or if you just feel you haven't got enough to get it done, buy a bigger round!

Most people with a conscience aren't going to feel great about taking another human life, so all of this drama in the build-up leads me to seriously question if it's really about personal safety, or repressed fantasy. I know that I've got enough to get the job done, and I don't need to make any religious symbols on my ammo.

 

[Weed]

Ok so since after I said you make no sense all you can do is say "you make no sense" like a parrot. I'm done with you.

 

[solid7]

Here, have some fun reading. Massad Ayoob is a well known expert on issues of firearms, self-defense, and the legality of the two. (in case you don't already know about him)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

That adequately covers handloading. That being said, only a fool would modify ammunition in a self-defense weapon.

 

Ok so since after I said you make no sense all you can do is say "you make no sense" like a parrot. I'm done with you.

I will hold you to your word. No coming back for more from you.

 

[CAPCOM]

 
Drawing a parallel with hand loading seems like a logical leap since it is very easy to modify the cartridge if you are the one assembling it. I see this discussion played out more on hand loading forums then anywhere else.
 
I'm not really following what you're saying about people modifying factory ammo. What are they doing? Drilling a hole in ball ammo to try and make a hollow point? On top of a live primer and powder??? How stupid is that.

The statement was made about taking a file and filing a x or cross into the forward edge of the HP cavity causing the projectile to literally come apart on impact.
 
I have been referring to modifying the projectile. But since reloading/hand loading seems to find its way into the discussion I will address that also. I have reloaded for 34 years both pistol and rifle. I consider myself very knowledgeable on the subject. I have also cast my own lead bullets and am fairly knowledgeable in the considering I have only been doing it for the past two years. But back to using reloads for self defense. You can spend your entire life tailoring a defensive load and still never equal what is being put on the shelves by Winchester,CCI, Remington or Hornady.  But, I am stubborn and have had to learn many things the hard way and some of you reading this may be just as stubborn. This is not the topic to prove it! If you choose for any reason to carry your hand loaded ammunition you WILL find your self in the same predicament as if you had modified the projectile. I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP II with Winchester 230 gr PDX bonded ammo. I practice with my reloads only.

 

[solid7]

The statement was made about taking a file and filing a x or cross into the forward edge of the HP cavity causing the projectile to literally come apart on impact.
 
I have been referring to modifying the projectile. But since reloading/hand loading seems to find its way into the discussion I will address that also. I have reloaded for 34 years both pistol and rifle. I consider myself very knowledgeable on the subject. I have also cast my own lead bullets and am fairly knowledgeable in the considering I have only been doing it for the past two years. But back to using reloads for self defense. You can spend your entire life tailoring a defensive load and still never equal what is being put on the shelves by Winchester,CCI, Remington or Hornady.  But, I am stubborn and have had to learn many things the hard way and some of you reading this may be just as stubborn. This is not the topic to prove it! If you choose for any reason to carry your hand loaded ammunition you WILL find your self in the same predicament as if you had modified the projectile. I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP II with Winchester 230 gr PDX bonded ammo. I practice with my reloads only.

Yes, but M-expert-5inPA is so busy trying to tell everyone else how stupid they are, that he forgot to engage the part of the brain that regulates critical thought and/or comprehension. He's quoting posts from unrelated subjects to prove his point, all the while missing the one that others were trying to make. Sadly, it's a lost cause.

Now, I can't say that I'm an expert in loading ammo, but I'm certainly not going to try to reinvent the wheel, nor take any action that makes a bad situation worse. Crosses are for church, not ammo. And unfortunately for me, I know of a lawyer that took this anhorrent path in trying to win a civil suit for the dead perp. (or victim, from the family perspective)

 

[AlabamaJack]

look guys, I didn't say that to start a big argument...I just said it was something you could do to make the projectile a little more "injurious"...now you can use this ammo how ever you want...I, personally don't care what the legal system says..."I don't know why the bullet would have come apart...it was old ammo that I could have dropped while I was loading..."

 

[CAPCOM]

well, if it's the case of me vs him/her/them in my home, I had rather have 6 trying me than 6 carrying me...thank god for the castle law here in Texas....

We have laws similar to the castle law here as well but I don't want to become the poster child for a civil and or wrongful death suit because I though my modified ammo was better than the factory stuff. Further, I don't see the point of trying to make a projectile do more than it already does. My 1st 2 shots will stop any forward or aggressive movement and the 3rd shot eliminates his or her testimony.

 

[AlabamaJack]

there was a guy that robbed a jewelry store in south Florida a long time ago...the owner had put live rattlesnakes in the store at night and advertised that he did....anyway, the robber broke in, robbed the guy, got bit, sued the owner and won....
 
 now what kind of justice is that?.....
 
What I am saying is that common sense has been tossed out of our legal system and the fat cat lawyers that take these civil cases are the scum of the earth in my opinion...
 
So let me get this straight...a guy breaks into your house, you kill the bastard...a standard round will blow his ass away anyway....so what's the difference in killing the bastard with a modified round?....

 

[solid7]

We have laws similar to the castle law here as well but I don't want to become the poster child for a civil and or wrongful death suit because I though my modified ammo was better than the factory stuff. Further, I don't see the point of trying to make a projectile do more than it already does. My 1st 2 shots will stop any forward or aggressive movement and the 3rd shot eliminates his or her testimony.

Exactly!

What more needs to be said?

So let me get this straight...a guy breaks into your house, you kill the bastard...a standard round will blow his ass away anyway....so what's the difference in killing the bastard with a modified round?....

The difference is, you've been warned, and you choose to press your luck. Why ask why? Give no excuse!

 

[CAPCOM]

there was a guy that robbed a jewelry store in south Florida a long time ago...the owner had put live rattlesnakes in the store at night and advertised that he did....anyway, the robber broke in, robbed the guy, got bit, sued the owner and won....
 
 now what kind of justice is that?.....
 
What I am saying is that common sense has been tossed out of our legal system and the fat cat lawyers that take these civil cases are the scum of the earth in my opinion...
 
So let me get this straight...a guy breaks into your house, you kill the bastard...a standard round will blow his ass away anyway....so what's the difference in killing the bastard with a modified round?....

The state prosecutor will attempt to prove you had forethought and malice and wanted to inflict even more carnage than any other person who just wanted to protect his life and property. It will stick. this is easy to prove to a jury.
 
Oh, and its not justice, that's our legal system.

 

[AlabamaJack]

I'm out of this conversation...looks like I started an argument that can not be won on either side...

 

[Weed]

 
So let me get this straight...a guy breaks into your house, you kill the bastard...a standard round will blow his ass away anyway....so what's the difference in killing the bastard with a modified round?....

 
It's like the guy who fell through skylight breaking into someones home then sued and won.

 

[CAPCOM]

 
Well I have a friend who is a Supreme Court Justice and she says your friend should be disbarred.

 
 
Now I know you are full of BS. This last statement proves it and your are just instigating an argument from a peaceful discussion.   I'm gone

 

[Weed]

The state prosecutor will attempt to prove you had forethought and malice and wanted to inflict even more carnage than any other person who just wanted to protect his life and property. It will stick. this is easy to prove to a jury.
 
Oh, and its not justice, that's our legal system.

 
Just by purchasing a box of hollow points it could be real easy for a jury to come to the conclusion that there was forethought and malice. Especially in civil court.

 

 
Well I have a friend who is a Supreme Court Justice and she says your friend should be disbarred.

 
 
Now I know you are full of BS. This last statement proves it and your are just instigating an argument from a peaceful discussion.   I'm gone

 

 
I was pointing out the ridiculousness of him saying he had a lawyer friend - as if that qualifies him - in a not so subtle way. Sorry you didnt get it.

 

[Scovie]

 
Just by purchasing a gun it could be real easy for a jury to come to the conclusion that there was forethought and malice. Especially in civil court.

 
FIFY.
 
Yup, just get the right lawyer...