New Age Nonsense Friends on Facebook and Real Life

[yochannontzvi]

I design a kosher kitchen most every week throughout the year, and those are for orthodox Jews here - of which there are many, many more than 3-4, lol ...

but, more importantly ... you seem to have lost touch w/ what makes your freedom and likely existence possible in the first place - money and politcal pressure from people like all of us.

now I just feel like I wasted a lifetime's tzedakah on you ...

better hope all the other families of diasporadic Jews around the globe don't find out how thankless you are ...

 
Kosher's not what makes you right. BH you do such things. I actually have learnt the better part of busser v'chalav (laws of milk and meat) and am going to start learning ta'aruvot (the laws of forbidden mixtures). I still maintain my original position. You might be in with the "Pizza in the Hut" crowd, but, that doesn't mean you know how to decipher a gemara or dig through shitot harishonim or achronim. I grew up in Sarasota, I know there's hardly anyone that's actually shomer mitzvot. There really is not a active kehilla. I could offhand name the majority of people that are shomer mitzvot. It really is just a handful out of 17,000+ Jews. You'd be hard pressed to find a minyan that's shomer mitzvot. They might keep a kosher kitchen, but they're still m'challal shabbat b'rabim (desecrating the sabbath in public) in the process of getting to shule Friday night. The irony is overwhelming when you look at it that way. The tzibbur associates itself with one another; I'd of met them. You can't really design a kosher kitchen, either. You simply don't mix milk and meat or cook something not kosher in the same keilim and you keep seperate keilim. That's the main thing. I'll extend an apology to you, anyways. I'm sorry for have being rude. Perhaps I misread you to some extent. Whatever the case, sorry for having come off as rude to you. I know Sarasota very well. I know for sure that it's not remotely a frum place. This I can comment on with certainty. I'm not criticizing the tzibbur, I'm just calling it for what it is. If you can't see a reason to keep the taryag, that's your business and I'm not God's police to enforce it. I find it hard to believe that you'd suggest Sarasota has any considerable population of Orthodox Jews when the only Orthodox shule is a Chabad shule... which, in my opinion, is far removed from anything to do with halacha or traditional Judaism. I know the area very well. If you want to discuss why I say that, I'd be glad to say in private.
 
Btw, if you are designing kosher kitchens, are you by chance working with those Russian/Israeli guys that do redecoration? They go to Rabbi Steinmetz's minyan on Shabbos. I forgot their names. Never saw you at shule, though. It's difficult to call who you are in that regard, but, I can likely place you. There really isn't an Orthodox community in Sarasota. Where's the heder? Where do they send their kids to yeshivot? I'm sorry, but, the head count is indeed drastically low. I know that especially when I hear "designing a kosher kitchen".
 

Do you know what you are getting at? I thought what you were getting at was to defend how your religion, or any other for that matter is not a cult? (see post #63). Since we have established it is, as is all religions.....I am not saying anything against your religion or any others, I for one have none. We are speaking the same language, there is nothing you could say in English that i nor most here on THP would not understand. Now, agree with is completely a different thing. I understand the purpose for some to have beliefs, there is a certain bliss to ignorance. Everyone having a higher purpose, a sense of importance, each the center of the universe.

 
 
I know what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to defend to my religion. Practically speaking, there is no such thing as Judaism in the first place. We're a people. If you're a part of that people, you either know the law or you don't. There's really no in between.You can choose to reject it or accept it.  I'm not talking about the fact that we both speak English and I know Hebrew. That's not really the point. The difference lies in that it's a fundamentally different way of thinking and approaching text and tradition. I can't really explain that you standing on one foot.

 

[yochannontzvi]

For the record, I'm kind of a universalist. I don't think because somehow a religion is not my own that it's inherently wrong or something.

 

[grantmichaels]

Yes, it's a sprawling county w/ a shitty public transportation system ...

When you have fit twice the sinks and ovens in the same space on a remodel job because the family coming into the house keeps Kosher, it takes design/engineering-work, yes ...

 

[yochannontzvi]

Yes, it's a sprawling county w/ a shitty public transportation system ...

When you have fit twice the sinks and ovens in the same space on a remodel job because the family coming into the house keeps Kosher, it takes design/engineering-work, yes ...

 
A shitty public transportation system it is, indeed. The truth is, sinks aren't a problem for kosher. It's a stringency people keep. They're constantly filled with soapy water. The soap-water mixture gets rid of the issue of one flavor mixing into another because the flavor of the previous mixture becomes nullified as a result of the soapy mixture. Essentially, you can't taste it. Also, a lot of sinks are stainless steel. Stainless steel doesn't absorb flavor and can't give flavor even under heat. The only possible issue would be if you put a hot piece of cheese on top of a piece of meat, in which case it would have no effect on the utensils being cooked with since the flavor of the unkosher admixture does not give off to the vessel below it (assuming the food receiving the unkosher flavor was not hot); the flavor is not transferred to the utentsils (i.e. the sink or plate) unless the admixture itself is hot. The heat is what causes the flavor transfer into the the first thing it touches, not the second, unless the second thing is hot enough to allow the flavor of said admixture to absorb into the utensil(s) in question. In any case, even if the utensils were deemed unkosher as a result, you could still eat cold food off said unkosher utensils. That being said, you can use the same sink for all practical purposes for both meat and dairy or non-kosher dishes. Most people just keep separate sinks for convenience, not because it's actually an issue of kosher/not kosher.
 
I find it's strange that people keep kosher and don't keep anything else. That's the weird thing about us Jews, we pick and choose selectively.

 

[grantmichaels]

[dupe post]

 

[grantmichaels]

It's not weird, it's the design ...

Christianity:

You have to do this and this and this and you'll be doing it right ...

Judaism:

Don't violate these ten commandments and you are free to do as you wish ...

 

[yochannontzvi]

Even oven's aren't really an issue of kosher. You can technical
 

It's not weird, it's the design ...

Christianity:

You have to do this and this and this and you'll be doing it right ...

Judaism:

Don't violate these ten commandments and you are free to do as you wish ...

 
Not sure I follow.

Also, ovens aren't technically a problem, either. As long as your food is properly covered when you cook said food, it does not matter if you use the oven to exclusively cook cheeseburgers and pork. The issue is simply whether or not you'll taste a forbidden admixture.

 

[grantmichaels]

We usually setup the kashrut kitchens w/ two sinks, one for prep, and one for washing ... there are almost always either two ovens, or two stove's, and when there's room, two of each ...
 
There's also almost always two dishwashers, although some of the folks only get one, and us it only for one or the other, and sometimes others put the 2nd one in their utility room or garage ...
 
Personally, I eat shellfish, pork, and like beef and dairy at the same time ...
 
Anyways, I try to live by the 10 commandments, and that's about as far as it goes for me ... it's as much social fabric as I feel should be prescribed for me ...
 
I'm comfortable working out the remainder of the issue of morals and ethics on my own ...

 

[yochannontzvi]

We usually setup the kashrut kitchens w/ two sinks, one for prep, and one for washing ... there are almost always either two ovens, or two stove's, and when there's room, two of each ...
 
There's also almost always two dishwashers, although some of the folks only get one, and us it only for one or the other, and sometimes others put the 2nd one in their utility room or garage ...
 
Personally, I eat shellfish, pork, and like beef and dairy at the same time ...
 
Anyways, I try to live by the 10 commandments, and that's about as far as it goes for me ... it's as much social fabric as I feel should be prescribed for me ...
 
I'm comfortable working out the remainder of the issue of morals and ethics on my own ...

 
Understandable. I say to each their own. Everyone does what they can do to the best of what they understand... depending on the individual. All I'm saying is this; I know a lot of people that keep kosher in Sarasota, my grandparents would be included. However, if I opened up a Gemara in front of them or tried to present to them the intricacies of a certain standpoint in halacha, they most likely wouldn't follow. I think most of the American Jewish world views Judaism as something cultural. That's why they keep kosher. It's nothing to do with scriptural conviction or an understanding thereof. It's essentially not a cultural thing, though. It's not religious, either. It's unique. We're simply a people with law. I find that the majority of people do not know the law, myself included to some extent if we're going to be meticulous. I still haven't learnt everything. 
 
Honestly, I don't see what separates the ten commandments in ethical or legal significance from anything else beyond the context in which they were given (which is a whole discussion in and of itself). If you want to look into the technical aspect of it, there's not one single scriptural reason as to why we should regard the observance of family purity any different than we should the sabbath, idolatry, or even murder. There essentially is no "right and wrong". I could argue that in certain cases, even murder is justified. Why differentiate between one or the other if we're going to regard them both as imperatives? I could just as easily regard Exodus 20:13 as justifiable under certain circumstances were it not for the fact that we had a valid tradition to interpret it. The same verse could mean "thou shalt not kill" if we didn't define it as having the context of murder.

 

[grantmichaels]

 
Understandable. I say to each their own. Everyone does what they can do to the best of what they understand... depending on the individual. All I'm saying is this; I know a lot of people that keep kosher in Sarasota, my grandparents would be included. However, if I opened up a Gemara in front of them or tried to present to them the intricacies of a certain standpoint in halacha, they most likely wouldn't follow. I think most of the American Jewish world views Judaism as something cultural. That's why they keep kosher. It's nothing to do with scriptural conviction or an understanding thereof. It's essentially not a cultural thing, though. It's not religious, either. It's unique. We're simply a people with law. I find that the majority of people do not know the law, myself included to some extent if we're going to be meticulous. I still haven't learnt everything. 
 
Honestly, I don't see what separates the ten commandments in ethical or legal significance from anything else beyond the context in which they were given (which is a whole discussion in and of itself). If you want to look into the technical aspect of it, there's not one single scriptural reason as to why we should regard the observance of family purity any different than we should the sabbath, idolatry, or even murder. There essentially is no "right and wrong". I could argue that in certain cases, even murder is justified. Why differentiate between one or the other if we're going to regard them both as imperatives? I could just as easily regard Exodus 20:13 as justifiable under certain circumstances were it not for the fact that we had a valid tradition to interpret it. The same verse could mean "thou shalt not kill" if we didn't define it as having the context of murder.

 
Well, it was a significant upgrade for free people over the Code of Hammurabi, which largely reads like it would lead to the 1% scenario we live in, at present, here ...
 
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi...
 
"Slander, Trade, Slavery, The duties of workers, Theft, Food, Liability, Divorce"
 
... I mean, LOL ...
 
I go w/ picking and choosing half of the 10 commandments, and whatever I've gleamed from the modern translation of the Hippocratic Oath while working in medicine for 8 years ...
 
It covers life well-enough for my needs ...
 

 
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humility and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.

 
Layer that on top of a couple of simple things to keep in mind ...
 
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Thou shalt not covet they neighbors house, wife, pets, or anything
 
... and that's it.
 
It's easy enough that I can keep it in mind, and try to live by it ... and a little bit of Hippocratic mindfulness reminds that people are flawed, so I accept people's transgressions as breakdowns in judgement, being fallible humans, and sometimes illness.
 
I don't see the need to make it any more complicated than that, for myself ...

 

[yochannontzvi]

I'm still not sure I follow you 100%. I'm familiar with Hammurabi's code but don't fully see what you're saying. I think we may more or less be on the same page, but, I'm not clear on what you're saying. Also, Jewish doctors swear the same oath. It's not somehow exclusive of Judaic beliefs to hold by Hippocrates in this regard.

 

[grantmichaels]

I'm still not sure I follow you 100%. I'm familiar with Hammurabi's code but don't fully see what you're saying. I think we may more or less be on the same page, but, I'm not clear on what you're saying. Also, Jewish doctors swear the same oath. It's not somehow exclusive of Judaic beliefs to hold by Hippocrates in this regard.

 
I'm saying that the Ten Commandments were an upgrade on the Code of Hammurabi which preceded it (from the same loci of humanity geographically) ... that the Code of Hammurabi reads like a doctrine on how to keep the majority of people stuck in a state of serfdom, and that the Ten Commandments do a better job providing directions for how to live in a modern society ... and then I poked at how the actual modern society we live in here in teh States really *IS* like the one describes by Hammurabi, 1% and all ...
 
The Hippocratic Oath is Greek, having nothing to do with Judaism, but it's a good way to look at being compassionate and accepting the human condition, which at the end of the day, is to be largely fallible ...
 
People are layer upon layer of coping mechanism ... it's genuinely a struggle to stay alive, and the fight for resources is real and omnipresent ...

 

[yochannontzvi]

 
I'm saying that the Ten Commandments were an upgrade on the Code of Hammurabi which preceded it (from the same loci of humanity geographically) ... that the Code of Hammurabi reads like a doctrine on how to keep the majority of people stuck in a state of serfdom, and that the Ten Commandments do a better job providing directions for how to live in a modern society ... and then I poked at how the actual modern society we live in here in teh States really *IS* like the one describes by Hammurabi, 1% and all ...
 
The Hippocratic Oath is Greek, having nothing to do with Judaism, but it's a good way to look at being compassionate and accepting the human condition, which at the end of the day, is to be largely fallible ...
 
People are layer upon layer of coping mechanism ... it's genuinely a struggle to stay alive, and the fight for resources is real and omnipresent ...

 
I won't argue that Hammurabi's code didn't play a factor in the development of Biblical law. I think it did, to some extent. That's sort of the beauty of it, really. The Torah was a document that acknowledged the human condition and what they believed at the time. Assuming you accept we have free will and the ability to believe what you want (we'll assume for arguments sake you do), God recognized at that particular point in time the people needed a system of law and governance that would appeal to the people. If the system didn't appeal to the people, no one would follow it. There's actually a lot of interesting midrashim that confirm this belief in my eyes and other's greater than I. For example, in the tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud, there's discussion as to whether or not the laws of giluy arayot (carnal relations and nudity) will apply when the messiah comes. Or whether or not pig will be kosher when the messiah comes. The same discussion is brought up regarding other commandments in other places.
 
In my eyes, and I'll only speak for myself on this one, the idea it's trying to bring out in the law is the question as to whether it's still applicable when the reason for it ceases to be. The answer is ultimately that it will always be applicable, since we uphold our legal system as the harbinger of said messiah and enlightenment, thus there's no reason to negate it since that's what brought us there in the first place. The law itself has value when you acknowledge it for what it was coming to address. God could have just as easily written things otherwise if people would have been receptive to an alternative. They weren't. That's why we allowed and instituted the practice of animal sacrifice, to give on example. It all comes down to the looking at the modus operandi of the people it was addressed to. The way people used to think is not entirely the same as it is today. However, one must respect the value of law and order.
 
With all that being said, I truly fail to see why this falls into the classification of a cult or the old "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality.

As a side point, I also think this was very much what Paul came to touch on. My knowledge on the NT is limited, though. This is how I view it through the eyes or Rabbinc Judaism, though. That being said, I strongly disagree with him.

Then ten commandments, though, never really had a stronger legal foothold than any other part of the Torah.

 

[Student of Spice]

And we go full circle.....
 

 

With all that being said, I truly fail to see why this falls into the classification of a cult or the old "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality.

 
 

 



cult play

noun \ˈkəlt\

Simple Definition of cult
Popularity: Top 10% of words

• 
  : a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous
  
• 
  : a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much
  
• 
  : a small group of very devoted supporters or fans   
  

Full Definition of cult

1. 
   1 :  formal religious veneration :  worship
   
2. 
   2 :  a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also :  its body of adherents
   
3. 
   3 :  a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also :  its body of adherents
   
4. 
   4 :  a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
   
5. 
   5 a :  great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially :  such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b :  the object of such devotion c :  a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
   

all religions, by definition can fall into the category of a cult
 

 
 

 
I think it depends on how you use the word "cult". If you're going to call it cult in the broad sense of the word, fine, you could indeed call all religion cultic. 
 
I concede that they've got a point.

 
It's still a cult

 

[yochannontzvi]

 
I'm saying that the Ten Commandments were an upgrade on the Code of Hammurabi which preceded it (from the same loci of humanity geographically) ... that the Code of Hammurabi reads like a doctrine on how to keep the majority of people stuck in a state of serfdom, and that the Ten Commandments do a better job providing directions for how to live in a modern society ... and then I poked at how the actual modern society we live in here in teh States really *IS* like the one describes by Hammurabi, 1% and all ...
 

 
Also, when you get into the nitty gritty of it, you'll find that slavery, for example, was not encouraged. It was *allowed*. You simply can't strip a bronze age society of the notion of slavery. On this the Talmud comes to comment that one who has a lot of slaves is considered a lowlife.

And we go full circle.....
 
 
 
 
 
 
It's still a cult

 
I understand. But, I'm looking at it in terms of a national movement, not a religious one. From a strictly scriptural standpoint,  do you actually think all the people during the times of the Exodus and later generations maintained the proscribed monotheistic teachings they were given? I highly doubt they were.

 

[Student of Spice]

 

[yochannontzvi]

You can read any of the books of prophets, even the Pentateuch, to deduce that was not the case.

Hey, I'm just saying, if you look at the Jewish history as a national one as opposed to religious, it loses a lot of the taste of religion.

 

[grantmichaels]

We all draw the conclusions and pass down norms and interpret the customs and culture as applied to time, space, resources, and our own very existence etc ...
 
At the end of the day, without faith, it's all bullshit ...
 
There's no proof ... and by that I mean, rigorous proof ... like geometry ...
 
I'm not taking anything as fact without proof, and I'm not all that keen on faith as a reliable marker of anything, really ...
 
Faith is for those inclined to follow ... not leaders.
 
Leaders with a lot of 'faith' are perhaps the most dangerous kind, I'm afraid ...

 

[yochannontzvi]

We all draw the conclusions and pass down norms and interpret the customs and culture as applied to time, space, resources, and our own very existence etc ...
 
At the end of the day, without faith, it's all bullshit ...
 
There's no proof ... and by that I mean, rigorous proof ... like geometry ...
 
I'm not taking anything as fact without proof, and I'm not all that keen on faith as a reliable marker of anything, really ...
 
Faith is for those inclined to follow ... not leaders.
 
Leaders with a lot of 'faith' are perhaps the most dangerous kind, I'm afraid ...

 
I'm inclined to more or less agree with you. The thing is, we don't really have "faith". It's a matter of perception. You either perceive there's a God or there isn't. I don't see that as a matter of faith. I see that as a matter of culmination of life's experiences and the resources available to you. You can't really know anything objectively through empirical measures. As far as I'm concerned, empiricism has it's limits. If there is a way to objectively answer to another that there is a God, I've not found it. How does one expect to measure the validity of a non-corporeal being through the corporeal means of empiricism in the first place? I think that the entire premise of religious belief is misplaced. It's not a matter of faith, nor is it a matter of empiricism, either. Empiricism has a better chance at finding it, though, if it can be found through such means.

 

[grantmichaels]

You can read any of the books of prophets, even the Pentateuch, to deduce that was not the case.

Hey, I'm just saying, if you look at the Jewish history as a national one as opposed to religious, it loses a lot of the taste of religion.

 
That's Israeli history, not Jewish history ...
 
This is becoming like a nature/nurture argument, and the degree of importance of blood relations ... and we all know if you go far enough with that, you approach Godwin's Law rapidly ...
 
There's genetic evidence that's come to light in the past decade that the majority of Ashkenazi "Jews" on the planet are the offspring from SIX Middle Eastern males having picked up Italian/Roman or whatever women on the way to what would now be Germany ...
 
So like, I think there's way, way, way more Askenazi Jews worldwide than Sephardic Jew in Israel I'm thinking ...
 
It's likely the base of any "power" to not get wiped off the planet by all the people who hate and don't wish to have an Israel exist at all ... and look, it's a mutt, it's not pure by any stretch of the imagination ...
 
And really, let's be honest, the true "protections" for Israel by Americans aren't "for Jews" ... they are to protect Jerusalem for white Anglo-Americans, for Christianity ...
 
That's why I think it's ridiculous to condescend to anyone, for the most part, when it's all based on a form of charity in one form or another ...
 
You literally live in a place that exists purely on the actions and feelings of everyone you are talking to, both the couple of Jewish people around here, and all of the Christians ...
 
The Iron-Dome, the planes the Air-Force flies, and nuclear capacity ... it mostly rides on American's backs ...

 
I'm inclined to more or less agree with you. The thing is, we don't really have "faith". It's a matter of perception. You either perceive there's a God or there isn't. I don't see that as a matter of faith. I see that as a matter of culmination of life's experiences and the resources available to you. You can't really know anything objectively through empirical measures. As far as I'm concerned, empiricism has it's limits. If there is a way to objectively answer to another that there is a God, I've not found it. How does one expect to measure the validity of a non-corporeal being through the corporeal means of empiricism in the first place? I think that the entire premise of religious belief is misplaced. It's not a matter of faith, nor is it a matter of empiricism, either. Empiricism has a better chance at finding it, though, if it can be found through such means.

 
The only "God" I have are the constants in the universe ...
 
I don't need to argue w/ anyone about the creation of the universe, because I don't require a beginning (or an end, for that matter) ...
 
What if it's all balanced, what if it's something like E = mc2? ...
 
I certainly don't deny evolution, not when we see it every day in the immune systems and virology ...