organic Organics 101

[pepper_rancher]

Why do you keep these separate? What else do you put in the kitchen scrap bin?  I just started composting this past winter and i have been putting it all in the same bin. 
 
Another question for anyone who knows, can you store compost or will it lose its potency? 

 
My personal motivation is due to the fact that (IMHO) the best quality compost will be the worm compost.  So worm acceptable foods are separated for the worm bin.  Hot composting bulk greens (grass clippings) would kill worms so they go in the hot composting tumbler... and the "unacceptable" compost (meat and bad leftovers, etc) go to the BSFL.
I have an additional motivation to keep the BSFL going at maximum capacity (not just a side show in the worm bin) because I sell off the pre-pupae after they harvest themselves.
 
If storing compost dont let it get rained on (it will leech out the nutrients), and dont let it get bone dry (the beneficial microbes will die off).

 

[Roguejim]

BSFL eating a pork chop time lapse I made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3m_qx4fmCs

You need a glog, if you don't already have one.  Great looking plants.  Have you experimented with bokashi?

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

Did I hear this guy right?  Two inches of composted leaves will supply a plant with everything it needs for an entire season??  No need for additional fert or soil amendments???  I don't believe it.

People have been doing it for a long time. My dad used to grow tomatoes that way every year.
The problem is that we have been brainwashed to believe it's all about N-P-K which is not true.
Here's one example I like to show people. What does this tree in the photo receive for nutrients besides the leaves that fall to the forest floor?
Sure it gets nutrients from deep in the ground where it's roots are but some of these trees are over 3,000 years old!
Nature knows how to take care of itself.
 

 
My personal motivation is due to the fact that (IMHO) the best quality compost will be the worm compost.  So worm acceptable foods are separated for the worm bin. 

Better yet, feed the worms the compost and then harvest the castings which will be even better.

 

[pepper_rancher]

You need a glog, if you don't already have one.  Great looking plants.  Have you experimented with bokashi?

 
I was just looking at bokashi videos on youtube!  I want to experiment by getting the bacteria from different readily available sources and compare the results to as starter made with the em-1 inoculant, (to save people money.)

 
The problem is that we have been brainwashed to believe it's all about N-P-K which is not true.

 
PMD, I respect and actively participate in organic gardening, but N-P-K is not a figment of marketing developed by fertilizer companies.  It is simple fact.  All methods of organic gardening are simply providing these N-P-K (and micro nutrients) to the plants, they just aren't controlled and measured like commercial fertilizers are.
 
I have heard it quoted that the founder father of the principal of Organic Gardening himself stated that plants can not tell the difference between N-P-K derived from organic matter from N-P-K which is derived from synthetic fertilizers.
 
The fact is that while organic gardening is a fantastic in principal, it can not support the amount of human life on planet earth.  Organic gardening is kind of a "first world" privilege since the vast majority of our society is fed on modern farming methods.
 
The majority of my growing is done with synthetic fertilizers these days, simply because I have found the amount of time and energy involved to produce large yields of crops is far less this way. 
 
I am happy to share my organic gardening experiences with everyone because I think it should be part (or even the whole) of every home gardener's experience, but I can not let such statements go unchallenged because it simply is not fair to the 'other side'.
 
This is all IMHO, please take no offense to this I just want to share my thoughts.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

 
PMD, I respect and actively participate in organic gardening, but N-P-K is not a figment of marketing developed by fertilizer companies.  It is simple fact.  All methods of organic gardening are simply providing these N-P-K (and micro nutrients) to the plants, they just aren't controlled and measured like commercial fertilizers are.
 

I guess I stated that wrong. My point was in regards to Roguejim saying he did not believe that 2" of compost would provide plants all they need for an entire season when indeed it will.
Yes N-P-K is the same in organic and synthetic in terms of what the plant can use but it's much more complex than that which is why people can't believe compost alone can sustain a plant through the season when they have been told that a plant needs regular feedings of synthetic N-P-K the whole growing season. That was my point. 

 

[Roguejim]

Sounds like an experiment is in order. The oak, and maple trees on my property don't drop leaves until almost Winter. How does one compost in cold, maybe even rainy weather?

 

[tctenten]

Sounds like an experiment is in order. The oak, and maple trees on my property don't drop leaves until almost Winter. How does one compost in cold, maybe even rainy weather?

I started a compost bin last fall and mine froze solid over the winter. Interested in reading the answer. I think that I just didn't get the pile "hot" enough.

 

[pepper_rancher]

I started a compost bin last fall and mine froze solid over the winter. Interested in reading the answer. I think that I just didn't get the pile "hot" enough.

 
Compost just happens.  It will be much slower in colder conditions, and at not-peak nitrogen/carbon ratios... but it still happens.
Just monitor your pile, add greens if nothing happens, add carbon if it stinks.
 
Cover your pile with a tarp to prevent rain penetration... it will leech all of the nutrients out (good for the surrounding soil, but not good if you intended to use the compost elsewhere)

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

 How does one compost in cold, maybe even rainy weather?

 
     I start saving lawn clippings in late summer and store them in a heap until leaves start to fall. Once I start accumulating leaves, I start mixing them together with the grass clippings in another heap. If I end up with too many leaves (like that can happen  ), I mix some high N organic fertilizer in. If I end up with not enough, my neighbor gives me all I can handle.
     Once the C:N ratio is right and the pile gets big enough (>~2-3 yd3), it starts to go thermophilic. I've had no problem maintaining temps over 150F when it gets down to 20 - 30 at night. If you're concerned about rain, just pile a layer of only leaves on the outside. They do a pretty good job of shedding rain off the outside of the pile.
     After a few weeks of hot temps, the pile starts to cool off on its own and I just let it sit under the snow all winter until it's time to use it in spring.

 

[Rairdog]

Grow a fall cover crop in the garden.  Mow all your leaves in rows and rake it up.  Store it next to the garden.  After a couple frosts cover the crop with leaves.  At plant out rake off the excess leaves.   Cover with newspaper/cardboard.  Top with grass clippings.  The worms will always be there where you need them.  I will usually get some rows of early brassicas in and then cover and cut out where the plants go later.   Granted I have 2 Sycamores and 2 Maples in excess of 3 foot diameter and a few acres to mow.  If you don't have the leaves they are bagged up and down the road in the fall for pick up.  No one has ever carried a bucket of fertilizer into the forest that I know of....lol.

 

[filmost]

 
I was just looking at bokashi videos on youtube!  I want to experiment by getting the bacteria from different readily available sources and compare the results to as starter made with the em-1 inoculant, (to save people money.)

 
PMD, I respect and actively participate in organic gardening, but N-P-K is not a figment of marketing developed by fertilizer companies.  It is simple fact.  All methods of organic gardening are simply providing these N-P-K (and micro nutrients) to the plants, they just aren't controlled and measured like commercial fertilizers are.
 
I have heard it quoted that the founder father of the principal of Organic Gardening himself stated that plants can not tell the difference between N-P-K derived from organic matter from N-P-K which is derived from synthetic fertilizers.
 
The fact is that while organic gardening is a fantastic in principal, it can not support the amount of human life on planet earth.  Organic gardening is kind of a "first world" privilege since the vast majority of our society is fed on modern farming methods.
 
The majority of my growing is done with synthetic fertilizers these days, simply because I have found the amount of time and energy involved to produce large yields of crops is far less this way. 
 
I am happy to share my organic gardening experiences with everyone because I think it should be part (or even the whole) of every home gardener's experience, but I can not let such statements go unchallenged because it simply is not fair to the 'other side'.
 
This is all IMHO, please take no offense to this I just want to share my thoughts.


Do you think organic and synthetic can exist? I ask because the other day I found a bottle of fertilizer that "includes organic materials" here in Japan. It was supposed to help protect/establish the soil microherd, but everything I read about synthetics suggests that they damage soil microbes.

 

[pepper_rancher]

..but everything I read about synthetics suggests that they damage soil microbes.

 
Probably organic "propaganda", nothing I use damages soil microbes...  I wouldn't pour synthetic motor oil on the plant, but these nutrients are OK; they can coexist with the soil microbes.  Keep in mind it disqualifies your plant from being called "organic" at that point though.

 

[filmost]

 
Probably organic "propaganda", nothing I use damages soil microbes...  I wouldn't pour synthetic motor oil on the plant, but these nutrients are OK; they can coexist with the soil microbes.  Keep in mind it disqualifies your plant from being called "organic" at that point though.


yah recently I've thinking whether I want to keep going 100% organic of if I just wanna do pesticide free only.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

 
Probably organic "propaganda", nothing I use damages soil microbes...  I wouldn't pour synthetic motor oil on the plant, but these nutrients are OK; they can coexist with the soil microbes.  Keep in mind it disqualifies your plant from being called "organic" at that point though.

Synthetic fertilizers do damage soil microbes because of the salts in them. To what extent I am not certain.

PMD, I respect and actively participate in organic gardening, but N-P-K is not a figment of marketing developed by fertilizer companies.  It is simple fact.  All methods of organic gardening are simply providing these N-P-K (and micro nutrients) to the plants, they just aren't controlled and measured like commercial fertilizers are.
 
I have heard it quoted that the founder father of the principal of Organic Gardening himself stated that plants can not tell the difference between N-P-K derived from organic matter from N-P-K which is derived from synthetic fertilizers.
 
The fact is that while organic gardening is a fantastic in principal, it can not support the amount of human life on planet earth.  Organic gardening is kind of a "first world" privilege since the vast majority of our society is fed on modern farming methods.
 
The majority of my growing is done with synthetic fertilizers these days, simply because I have found the amount of time and energy involved to produce large yields of crops is far less this way. 
 
I am happy to share my organic gardening experiences with everyone because I think it should be part (or even the whole) of every home gardener's experience, but I can not let such statements go unchallenged because it simply is not fair to the 'other side'.
 
This is all IMHO, please take no offense to this I just want to share my thoughts.

This is a little lengthy but it discusses what I am talking about.

"What about NPK in Natural Growing?

Ill try to write something up which illustrates the difference between nutrient processing and utilization from a chemical and natural (or organic) standpoint (for want of a better word). The following information and opinion is stated by me and is derived from the citations and links provided. I use the words apparently and appears because I believe knowledge and science is fluid. I also dont pretend to understand everything perfectly and may need correcting. Just because we know the Earth is not flat does not mean we know everything about it.

To simplify things Ill restrict the discussion to the plants use of nitrogen (N). The forms of N which plant roots are able to uptake are in ionic form or soluble. These soluble forms of N are ammonium (NH4+) and nitrate (NO3-). Very simply stated these soluble forms of N are instantly available in chemical N and there is no need for any bacterial/archaeal (B/A) mineralization to make them available to the roots of plants. There is some indication that some soluble ammonium is utilized by B/A and mineralized into nitrates, however this appears (to me) somewhat an opportunistic occurrence (from the B/A perspective). So yes we can concur that B/A eats and thrives on some chemically provided ions but this action is not a necessary one for the plant to uptake exactly the same ions as are being consumed by the B/A. In certain circumstances the B/A will be in competition with the plant for these nutrients. So it appears that plants can grow in this fashion without interaction by mineralizing B/A. It appears that the chemically provided ions (soluble N) completely bypass the microbial nutrient cycle.

With natural or organic growing, N ( R-NH2 ) for the plant is contained (sequestered) in a non-soluble (non-ionic) form in organic matter (or in the case of the gardener; compost and other soil foods). It is true that there are certain known bacteria (and now some archaea) which directly fix and supply ionic forms of N to the roots of plants and this is an area where we are still learning so all is not known by any stretch. However soil scientists have discovered and it is common knowledge (as knowledge goes) that the bulk of NH4+ and NO3- are delivered to the roots of plants by protozoa (flagellates, amoebae and ciliates). This occurs in a complex network ostensibly, controlled in large degree by the plant. The plant releases compounds from the roots which feed B/A, thereby increasing the B/A population. The B/A consumes/processes forms of R-NH2 or forms which are pre-degraded by fungi and or other B/A. The B/A further multiply with a good supply of food and their large population encourages the excysting (hatching from cysts) and dividing of protozoa. The protozoa prey upon the B/A and in an approximate 30 minute period complete the excretion of NH4+ and/or NO3- available to the roots of the plants. Apparently protozoa only utilize 30 to 40 percent of the nutrient consumed  making 60 to 70% available to plants and many have a division cycle of 2 hours so the efficiency of this nutrient delivery system is considerable. Just as it began, the microbial N cycle can be rapidly shut down by chemical emissions from the plant. It is apparent that the nutrient needs of the plant can change within short periods (perhaps in hours). There is much yet unknown, however I hypothesize that even disease control may be effected by a sudden reduction of N in the rhizosphere. This is certainly something which cannot be effectively manipulated by chemical N applications.

My goal in writing this was to illustrate the stark differences between the use by a plant of chemically provided ions and those derived through the microbial nutrient cycle. I believe I have succeeded. There are other ways which plants obtain N, such as through fungal interactions but that is nature; always have a back up."

From:http://microbeorganics.com

 

[filmost]

so the question still exists, can there by a hybrid synthetic organic method that brings the best of both worlds?

no doubt synthetic is faster but from what I gather organic is more delicious.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

so the question still exists, can there by a hybrid synthetic organic method that brings the best of both worlds?

I don't believe that's possible.

Here's a good article on the two types.
http://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/garden/organic-fertilizers

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

so the question still exists, can there by a hybrid synthetic organic method that brings the best of both worlds?

no doubt synthetic is faster but from what I gather organic is more delicious.

 
     Organic gardening is the best of both worlds!   
     Who says synthetic fertilizing is faster? When I put my plants in the ground, they were fed immediately and they will continue to have everything they need even while I'm at work or drinking a beer. Sure it takes a little effort to make good soil, but after that it's just minimal maintenance from my end. I let my soil feed my plants on its schedule.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

 
     Organic gardening is the best of both worlds!   
     Who says synthetic fertilizing is faster? When I put my plants in the ground, they were fed immediately and they will continue to have everything they need even while I'm at work or drinking a beer. Sure it takes a little effort to make good soil, but after that it's just minimal maintenance from my end. I let my soil feed my plants on its schedule.

Well said my friend.
Once you have a good viable soil it's easy. Top dress a couple of times a season if you like with ewc and some chopped Comfrey if you have it or maybe some kelp and water it. That's it. No pH to figure out or anything. I like that personally.

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

Once you have a good viable soil it's easy. 
 

 
     Do you grow in ground (besides comfrey)? If so, do you turn or fork your soil ever? Or do you just dump everything on top and just let stuff happen?

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

 
     Do you grow in ground (besides comfrey)? If so, do you turn or fork your soil ever? Or do you just dump everything on top and just let stuff happen?

I have some things in the ground but all of my crops are in containers.
I do turn the ground occasionally with a fork and work in some compost but my yard is a work in progress as I don't have near enough compost to amend all the flower beds. I am going to go buy another 1/2 yd of Diestel turkey compost from the supplier across the bay as I can't make near enough for what I want it for.
It's only $104 a yard or $52 a 1/2 yd so that is a great price I think.