commercial-kichen Commercial kitchen project

HellfireFarm

HellfireFarm

eXtreme Business
Time to kick off this project!

I called the electric company today to have them come out and tell me what it's going to take to get the new service. County tells me that because of my agricultural zoning, this counts as a farm outbuilding so isn't subject to the permit requirements something like a house or commercial structure would be (YAY!). Especially since it's an existing structure being converted. That means I'll be able to use the existing well and septic, too. All the major hurdles are out of the way.

Next I need to get ahold of Ag department and county health to see if there's anything I need to do for them before I start. Obviously I will need a water test and probably some sort of filtration or purification.
 
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Residential stove is fine. As long as it will do what you need. I tried to use a rez propane stove, it couldnt heat up the large stock pots. I ended up getting a freestanding crab cooker burner with a larger bbq propane tank. Eventually i got a 210,000 btu crab cooker burner. Keep an eye out on CraigsList and such.

Also, 'washable surface' means kitchen and bath paint.

Interesting idea to run the drains into the mop sink. I hope that works, save having the hassle of a floor sink.

I like the revised design. Looks very workable.
 
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salsalady said:
Residential stove is fine. As long as it will do what you need. I tried to use a rez propane stove, it couldnt heat up the large stock pots. I ended up getting a freestanding crab cooker burner with a larger bbq propane tank. Eventually i got a 210,000 btu crab cooker burner. Keep an eye out on CraigsList and such.

Also, 'washable surface' means kitchen and bath paint.
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Thanks for the confirmation!
At this point I'm planning VCT (CVT?) all around, seems to be the best compromise of cost, cleanability, and ease of installation.
salsalady said:
Interesting idea to run the drains into the mop sink. I hope that works, save having the hassle of a floor sink.

I like the revised design. Looks very workable.
Click to expand...

Probably isn't clear on the design but I was intending the mop sink to be a floor-level one. Seems that if I need a floor drain, why not limit it to one?

Thanks, I'm looking forward to the next steps.

Talked to electric company engineer today. I was informed that I will need to mount the breaker panel on a post, not on the building. Good to know! Need to do some research on installing exterior breaker panels - I know there's some considerations about temperature and wire gauge, and how many wires through a conduit, etc.
 
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It is the outside disconnect thing, new code.
You will need an exterior 200amp disconnect.


This could be a ranch/trailer panel that has breakers for other things...


Or a single knife switch rated to your service.
 
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HellfireFarm said:
Thanks for the confirmation!
At this point I'm planning VCT (CVT?) all around, seems to be the best compromise of cost, cleanability, and ease of installation.


Probably isn't clear on the design but I was intending the mop sink to be a floor-level one. Seems that if I need a floor drain, why not limit it to one?

Thanks, I'm looking forward to the next steps.

Talked to electric company engineer today. I was informed that I will need to mount the breaker panel on a post, not on the building. Good to know! Need to do some research on installing exterior breaker panels - I know there's some considerations about temperature and wire gauge, and how many wires through a conduit, etc.
Click to expand...

Just re-read the previous post regarding the exterior service. Requiring mounting on a post rather than on the building is new to me. Could be a requirement of your local utility.

Clarify if they want the whole breaker panel outside so all the circuits go out to the post, and there isnt a panel in the shed???...unusual....or just the meter and a 200amp disconnect, examples below.

Combo meter/ext disconnect/ with breakers
www.dkhardware.com

Square D SO2040VP Homeline 200 Amp 20-Space 40-Circuit Outdoor Ring-Type Overhead Service Surface Mount Main Breaker CSED Value Pack

Buy Square D SO2040VP Homeline 200 Amp 20-Space 40-Circuit Outdoor Ring-Type Overhead Service Surface Mount Main Breaker CSED Value Pack online at DKHardware.com. Our Electrical & Gas category offers a great selection of Load Centers products at the best price!
www.dkhardware.com www.dkhardware.com


If the meter is separate and you dont need exterior outlets something like this would work-
www.homedepot.com

Square D QO 200 Amp 2-Pole Outdoor Circuit Breaker Enclosure with QOM2200VH Breaker QOM2E2200NRB - The Home Depot

The Square D by Schneider Electric QO 200 Amp Outdoor Circuit Breaker Enclosure includes a two-pole QOM2 frame sizes circuit breakers 100-225 amp capacity for use as an exterior disconnect. This breaker
www.homedepot.com
 
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The Hot Pepper said:
Is that the official term 😂
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I was refering to the subject of outside disconnects, not an item. i can see the confusion. Like, tictok is a "thing". I think that is a correct analogy.
 
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Yes yes but had to mess with you on it lol

PS. I've only seen a meter and panel on a post/pole when it's technically temporary, as in, new service and no where to put it yet. Like power to a house being built.
 
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:lol: its all good, i dont know all the technical terms and make up names like 'flippy wago'....drives John nuts...

We do temps on posts frequently. I am curious to see if the local utility is requiring something permanent on a post instead of on/in the building.
 
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Yeah I'd be interested to hear that too. If the answer is on the post, it may be worth asking how you can put it directly on the building, and there may be an answer like, you have to have fire-rated plywood behind it.
 
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I dont know of anything in the NEC that REQUIRES the service (exterior meter, disconnect and breakers) to be remotely mounted.

But then again, there is about 99% of the NEC i dont know......

And the local utilities can make their own regs. We were installing a meter and the whsl house sent us a meter that was "approved" by the PUD of an adjacent county. Standard meter we install is <$100. This "approved PUD" meter was $650!!! :eek:

The whsl house had to eat that one...
 
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From what I've read, the outside disconnect is to make it easier for firefighters to cut the power. I can appreciate that.
salsalady said:
Just re-read the previous post regarding the exterior service. Requiring mounting on a post rather than on the building is new to me. Could be a requirement of your local utility.
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Probably is. Utility is Duke Energy. He showed me some diagrams for what they require, and told me that I couldn't mount the panel on the wall. It needs to be on a 6x6" post near the structure. 18" away was ok so at least I can get pretty close.
Maybe I'll call him again to be totally clear. It seemed a bit odd to me too.

salsalady said:
Clarify if they want the whole breaker panel outside so all the circuits go out to the post, and there isnt a panel in the shed???...unusual....or just the meter and a 200amp disconnect, examples below.
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I asked about that and he said the breaker panel. Maybe I'll follow up to be totally sure. They'll do the meter.

I need 8 circuits with 9 slots (one is 240 DP). The panel I'm looking at is this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-200-Amp-12-Spaces-24-Circuit-Main-Lug-Load-Center/1000791992
The Hot Pepper said:
Yes yes but had to mess with you on it lol

PS. I've only seen a meter and panel on a post/pole when it's technically temporary, as in, new service and no where to put it yet. Like power to a house being built.
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Same here. Seems odd to me too.
 
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Here is what he showed me

20230206_094637.jpg



20230206_094631.jpg


so it looks like a 24' pole buried 4'. Panel is mounted on the pole beneath the meter.

I'm going to have to find a source for a weatherhead and get some clarity on the attachment point. Fortunately I have a "personal lineman" who can help me with some of this.
 
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Why do you need a 24 foot pole? Buried 4 feet, that is 20 feet above ground. Unless the service is going over roads with semi trucks, most clearances are 12 to 16 feet. That is the height of the wire above grade. We can stick the weatherhead a foot or so above the pole, but check with the utility if that is approved in your area.

Mounting the breaker panel outside on the pole doesnt make sense. There is a limit to tge number of branch circuits that can be put in a conduit, regardless of conduit size. If this was a house, you would have to bring about 6 conduits from the house to the panel.

Make a note if you get the linked panel to get the main breaker shown in one of the pictures. Do not use the lugs.

We can use a 6x6x? Pressure treated post. We dont have a local source for round poles.
 
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salsalady said:
Why do you need a 24 foot pole? Buried 4 feet, that is 20 feet above ground. Unless the service is going over roads with semi trucks, most clearances are 12 to 16 feet. That is the height of the wire above grade. We can stick the weatherhead a foot or so above the pole, but check with the utility if that is approved in your area.

Mounting the breaker panel outside on the pole doesnt make sense. There is a limit to tge number of branch circuits that can be put in a conduit, regardless of conduit size. If this was a house, you would have to bring about 6 conduits from the house to the panel.
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Yeah, I didn't totally get it either, but that's what Duke said. BUT, turns out it's all moot (see next post)
 
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SO

I live by the maxim that every big project will have one big speed bump. It has held 100% so far in my life, and this one just hit one.

Turns out that the whole permit thing is rather mixed up. Despite not needing permits for any of this in general, I DO need an electrical permit for the new service. Well, turns out that since the structure was never permitted, they won't issue the electrical permit.

New electric service is off the table. I'm going to have to pull from the house panel.

This required a little rethinking. There's quite a few breakers on my panel already, although it looks worse than it really is because there are a BUNCH of "spares" not connected to anything. So I actually added things up. First, the total in use on the panel: 280 amps worth of breakers on the 200 amp service. That's not as bad as I thought. Next, I went through the house and added up the wattage of everything that's always on, and everything that cycles (computers, heat mats and lights in the grow area, space heaters, refrigerators, well pump, etc.) and came up with a total of 135A if everything is running at the same time. Which would be incredibly unlikely. Finally, I added up the steady draw for the kitchen (cycling items) and came up with 11A total.

Given all this, I have decided to pull 40A off a new breaker in my house panel and go with a sub-panel for the kitchen instead. I think that this speed bump actually ended up saving me a good bit of cash, just needed a realignment in my thinking.

That's about it for the technical electric stuff I guess, that's probably not so interesting to most! We'll get on the the more interesting stuff soon!
 
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The Hot Pepper said:
Well is this going to hinder any new construction as well? If not permitted how can they allow the construction?
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That's kinda the main issue - whether it gets treated as a farm outbuilding or a separate building. The separate electrical service requires it to be treated separately with its own permits for everything. If I were on county water or sewer, that would have the same requirement. If it does NOT have its own separate services, then it's treated as an outbuilding that doesn't need the permits. Since I'm on well and septic, that doesn't apply if I don't do the electric service.

If I were a "Bona fide farm", even the separate services wouldn't require building permits, only their own permits for the service. But I don't qualify for that status (which apparently is a tax status?)

What a maze trying to get through all those rules 😵‍💫
 
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