Concerning sudden leaf problems.. suspect over fert

[scotchnaga85]

I suspect i might have over fertilized my plant's   
Could this be sign of it?
 

 
Need some help/advice please folk 

 

[geeme]

This puckering:

 
Is a common sign of fertilizer burn. 
 
Looks like you have a few things going on, including possible sunburn. Are the plants outside? What are you feeding them and how often? How often are you watering? Have you had excessive rain? What kind of soil are you using, and have you checked its pH? Tell us more about your grow conditions.

 

[scotchnaga85]

They are grown outside in Grow Houses (doors left folded up).
 
Soil is a peat/ compost mix.
 
Watering is regular thing, as and when needed. The plants are in plastic pot's and during hot weather dry up quite quickly.
 
Around 3-4 weeks back i gave some of the plant's a fertilizer that has a high nitrogen content, i didn't see any negative effects from this afterwards. A couple of day's ago i purchased some tomato feed and gave all my plant's some, however they only received approx half the recommended dose.. the next day i noticed my leaves where all looking different and a few had crinkled badly!! That night i flushed all my pots several times, 2 days on the leaves do look a little paler however some still seem crumpled and wilted.
 
Feed: 
 
Nitrogen 4%
Ureic Nitrogen 2.1%
Phosphorus soluble in water 1.3%
Potassium soluble in water 6.6%
 
I suspected some of the leaves might have had a little sun burn at first, however in the last 4 days the problem has gotten out of hand and increased tenfold... the weather has not been especially hot either.

 

[queequeg152]

not fert burn imo.
 
tho by all means... check the EC of the runoff water with some distilled.
 
only old leaves show the marginal yellowing? 
 
new leaves look fine?
 
 
the puckering has nothing to do with fert burn. Its from any number of things, heat included in my experiance.
calcium often causes it, as the leaf margins grow at a different rate than the midrib. insect damage can cause it too, tho in isolation obiviously.
 
dont worry about the puckering unless its all over the plant.

 

[scotchnaga85]

What's the "puckering"?

It's crinkly/ crumple is on most of the plants now and it's largely effecting leaves on the upper half of the plants... It's a pretty sudden symptom.

The yellowing leaves are on the lower to mid parts of the plants and is not such a sudden symptom.

I have 8 plants all showing same symptoms post fertilizing.

 

[geeme]

I'm not convinced it's early fert burn, just pointing out that could be part of the problem. Chile plant leaves are generally rather smooth, but you can see that leaf to the right (in the pic I linked to) is not smooth at all - I am calling that "puckering". The thing about early fert burn is that, most often, the puckering is exhibited across many leaves, and there are often no signs of anything else wrong (though not always.) 
 
Sunburn often turns leaves (or parts of leaves more exposed to sun) white, and thins the walls of the leaves. The second pic down has a whitish look to the edges, unlike the pic above it, which is strongly yellow. Third pic down some leaves are smooth, some puckered, and some have yellow at the edges. 
 
There's a graphic of some common deficiencies on this site: http://tomatoheadquarters.com/tag/heirloom-tomatoes/#lightbox/4/
Scroll down to find it. Keep in mind that tomatoes and peppers are related, so their symptoms tend to be the same.

 

[scotchnaga85]

I'm not convinced it's early fert burn, just pointing out that could be part of the problem. Chile plant leaves are generally rather smooth, but you can see that leaf to the right (in the pic I linked to) is not smooth at all - I am calling that "puckering". The thing about early fert burn is that, most often, the puckering is exhibited across many leaves, and there are often no signs of anything else wrong (though not always.) 
 
Sunburn often turns leaves (or parts of leaves more exposed to sun) white, and thins the walls of the leaves. The second pic down has a whitish look to the edges, unlike the pic above it, which is strongly yellow. Third pic down some leaves are smooth, some puckered, and some have yellow at the edges. 
 
There's a graphic of some common deficiencies on this site: http://tomatoheadquarters.com/tag/heirloom-tomatoes/#lightbox/4/
Scroll down to find it. Keep in mind that tomatoes and peppers are related, so their symptoms tend to be the same.

Thank you for the link and explanation :-)

The puckering is evident on around 50% of the leaves, though not always as bad as in the picture above.

 

[queequeg152]

calcium is often the problem with respect to the puckered or wrinkled leaves. I feed at like 200 mg/L or 200ppm calcium. you might look into how much calcium is in your fertilizers, and supplement if necessary.
 
the crinkling/puckering IN MY EXPERIENCE, is also caused by heat stress. Not all, but several chins i have grown did this... after days of houston heat, 95+ for hours on end, they start showing this problem. i tried altering any number of nutrients, the only thing that helped it was 30% shade cloth.
 
ive also seen this behavior on frutenses, when allowed to grow too close(>12") to a HPS grow light. this damage was more of a rolling than puckering however. 
 
 
2.5 grams ( i think) calcium nitrate into one gallon water, should yield like 70-100 ppm calcium. check those numbers tho.
 
 
regarding your lower leaves. the marginal yellowing is probably due to a mobile element deficiency that may or may not still exist.
watch these leaves, if they continue to yellow, or more leaves yellow, then worry.
it could even be an mobile element deficiency, from when this foliage was the newest growth.
 
the marginal yellowing imo looks like potassium deficiency, but again, dont get nuts chasing every deficiency.
 
just focus on getting a good balanced fertilizer regime.

 

[scotchnaga85]

calcium is often the problem with respect to the puckered or wrinkled leaves. I feed at like 200 mg/L or 200ppm calcium. you might look into how much calcium is in your fertilizers, and supplement if necessary.
 
the crinkling/puckering IN MY EXPERIENCE, is also caused by heat stress. Not all, but several chins i have grown did this... after days of houston heat, 95+ for hours on end, they start showing this problem. i tried altering any number of nutrients, the only thing that helped it was 30% shade cloth.
 
ive also seen this behavior on frutenses, when allowed to grow too close(>12") to a HPS grow light. this damage was more of a rolling than puckering however. 
 
 
2.5 grams ( i think) calcium nitrate into one gallon water, should yield like 70-100 ppm calcium. check those numbers tho.
 
 
regarding your lower leaves. the marginal yellowing is probably due to a mobile element deficiency that may or may not still exist.
watch these leaves, if they continue to yellow, or more leaves yellow, then worry.
it could even be an mobile element deficiency, from when this foliage was the newest growth.
 
the marginal yellowing imo looks like potassium deficiency, but again, dont get nuts chasing every deficiency.
 
just focus on getting a good balanced fertilizer regime.

 
Over the years of growing, calcium or lack of it has never been a problem, you see we live in an area with extremely hard water... we have very chalky water.
 
Regarding the temperatures i'm lucky if it get's into the high 80's never mind the 90's Though in a sunny & fairly sheltered garden it does get pretty warm.
 

 
I found a few more pictures of the effects i'm most concerned with... also i checked this evening and the effected smaller leave's are thinner and crack real easy.
 
I appreciate your time & helping me on this subject, thank you
Bug sprays containing pyrethrin have caused this problem before... But I wouldn't dare use it on plants at this time of year. The oily residual stuff it leaves behind causes the leaves to wither and die in the sun.

If this is heat damage the what might have caused a sudden increase in damage across multiple plants housed in different locations... Is there a particular imbalance that could allow for this?

 

[queequeg152]

regarding your tap water.
 
your tap water likely has very little available calcium. its most likely full of carbonates( the stuff that scales your tub, washer, faucets etc.) 
carbonate is poorly available to plants at neutral ph.
 
 
i have about 200mg/l total alkalinity in my water. its almost 100% from calcium carbonate, and a little magnesium carbonate.
 
very very little available calcium 2+, the ion that plants uptake.
 
 
i dont think heat is any issue for you... pepper plants should love that climate. Most of my plants( talking about chins here)  would not stress until full sun at 95ish degrees F.
 
 
TBH however, your plants look alright to me. Yea you have a few buggered leaves that are distorted, but that's normal. any insect damage can cause that. a little nibble here, and later, as the leaf continues to grow, it gets all distorted.
 
i do see you have some wavy leaf margins. I'm looking at the last pic, center area and top right.
is this what you are referring to?
this is normal for chins, and honestly, a sign of good healthy fast growth. as the leaf tissue matures, and midrib expands, it will flatten out.
 
my only concern, is that your photos make it seem as tho your plants are a little nitrogen starved? its always very hard to tell from photos, but some look a little yellow? maby not. could just be my monitor. ( last pic, bottom left.) ( top pic, bottom right.)

 

[solid7]

Inconsistent temps - hot/cold are often responsible for those ugly leaves. It can also be caused by quick doses of nitrogen that don't last. I see it often early season when my plants are growing like gang busters. They get HUGE leaves at first, but start tapering off. While they grow fast at first, when the growth slows down suddenly, (sometimes while leaves are still forming) and they look deformed. You may also notice this happening when you get rains.

For me, this is sympomatic of sporadic uptake. Whether it's shortage available nutrients, lack of consistent watering, variance in temperature, or spikes in nutrients. In any case, there's nothing wrong with your plants. You have the gardening equivalent of hypochodria. LOL

 

[scotchnaga85]

regarding your tap water.
 
your tap water likely has very little available calcium. its most likely full of carbonates( the stuff that scales your tub, washer, faucets etc.) 
carbonate is poorly available to plants at neutral ph.
 
 
i have about 200mg/l total alkalinity in my water. its almost 100% from calcium carbonate, and a little magnesium carbonate.
 
very very little available calcium 2+, the ion that plants uptake.
 
 
i dont think heat is any issue for you... pepper plants should love that climate. Most of my plants( talking about chins here)  would not stress until full sun at 95ish degrees F.
 
 
TBH however, your plants look alright to me. Yea you have a few buggered leaves that are distorted, but that's normal. any insect damage can cause that. a little nibble here, and later, as the leaf continues to grow, it gets all distorted.
 
i do see you have some wavy leaf margins. I'm looking at the last pic, center area and top right.
is this what you are referring to?
this is normal for chins, and honestly, a sign of good healthy fast growth. as the leaf tissue matures, and midrib expands, it will flatten out.
 
my only concern, is that your photos make it seem as tho your plants are a little nitrogen starved? its always very hard to tell from photos, but some look a little yellow? maby not. could just be my monitor. ( last pic, bottom left.) ( top pic, bottom right.)

 
The paling that i think you might be referring to regarding low nitrogen is actually some of the leave's that have gone yellow that i mentioned earlier. 
 
Last lot of pictures, i have put crude looking arrows   to point at some of what i'm concerned about.. this is a mixture of leaves from different parts of the plant.
 

 

 
Also reading Solid7's thoughts it has me thinking that maybe the inconsistent watering, hot days followed by cool days, and the fertilizing of plants that probably didn't need it in the first place. Also these plant's have just gone through a massive growth spurt - My 2 Brainstrains grew some 20cm in hight over 13 days!!

 

[solid7]

Regardless, for what your plants look like RIGHT NOW, if you just give it a bit of time, and do nothing, they should snap out of it. If not, you'll get a better idea of how to diagnose. From what you've show, you are in no jeopardy of losing those plants.

 

[scotchnaga85]

This was the earlier fertilizer i gave to some of my plant's... 
 

Regardless, for what your plants look like RIGHT NOW, if you just give it a bit of time, and do nothing, they should snap out of it. If not, you'll get a better idea of how to diagnose. From what you've show, you are in no jeopardy of losing those plants.

 
Last year i lost a Naga to similar looking leaves. Growth slowed and all the new stuff looked similar, the mangled stuff was very sensitive to sunlight and often dried up, flower bud growth was also effected. Here is that plan't,
 

 
 
I had two of them but the other pulled through and is now happily in its second year and loaded with pod's   

 

[solid7]

I have to be honest, if you're prone to overdoing the ferts, or overthinking the whole process, is there any chance you might give organic gardening a go?

Just a thought...

 

[queequeg152]

any magnesium in your ferts?
 
dont see any calcium either.
 
in your last pic... that plant needs nitrogen.
 
first and second pics look like maby a light magnesium deficiency.
 
you could supplement that fert with some epsom salt easy enough, just do not mix it together.
 
do you have any hydro stores around you? you might want to buy a small bag of maxi grow, not bloom.
try this product out if you dont mind sheling out like 10 bucks usd.
 
IMO miracle grow is garbage... most of it is too high in urea, and ammonia nitrogen. its all wierd and blue, and super hydroscopic too. hard to keep it dry. i just do not like Miracle grow at all.
 
im not saying maxigrow will solve all of your problems(it could very well), but its a good high quality fert, with 100% of what your plants need in one bag... except maby boron i cannot recall.
 
mix it up, and water untill 10% runoff. its quite possibly the easiest to use fert period.

 

[scotchnaga85]

That last plant is one of 5 plants that where originally screaming out for fertiliser...

The 2 TS responded well to the miracle grow, the Dorset Naga not so well, however after the tomato feed it was ok.

The red Savina seems unresponsive to anything I've given it! :-/

And finally that plant you can see that you say needs nitrogen, that Naga has also had a couple of doses of miracle and 1 Tomato. Some of it's leaves are a very dark green with that wrinkle effect that is on my other lot and yet still over half it's leaves are a pale green almost yellow. It's like the plant can uptake the nutrients to certain parts.

I do have an organic feed that contains calcium and all the essential nutrients, however it needs to be mixed with the soil for best effects. It can be sprinkled around the top but I find it's quite crap really. Didn't help my yellow scorpions and Dorset much.

 

[scotchnaga85]

regarding your tap water.
 
your tap water likely has very little available calcium. its most likely full of carbonates( the stuff that scales your tub, washer, faucets etc.) 
carbonate is poorly available to plants at neutral ph.
 
 
i have about 200mg/l total alkalinity in my water. its almost 100% from calcium carbonate, and a little magnesium carbonate.
 
very very little available calcium 2+, the ion that plants uptake.
 
 

Out of curiosity I did a little digging and found this info from our local water company regarding calcium.

Mg/l CaCO3 ppm CaCO3 "290"

Mg/l Calcium "116.1"

There are a few other figures too...

So unless I'm reading it wrong that would be 116mg of available calcium per litre of tap water?

http://www.portsmouthwater.co.uk/about-us/default2.aspx?id=1020

My compost was originally around 35-40% peat with a ph of 6.

Would the regular watering of smallish pots with hard water reduce the acidity of the compost thus making the break down of nutrients less effective?

Sorry about all the questions.
:-)

 

[solid7]

I do have an organic feed that contains calcium and all the essential nutrients, however it needs to be mixed with the soil for best effects. It can be sprinkled around the top but I find it's quite crap really. Didn't help my yellow scorpions and Dorset much.

 
I was thinking more along the lines of a living soil.  Organic ferts have to be broken down by microbes, so there is not going to be an instantaneous effect.  Additionally, if you've already used a "regular" fertilizer, the organic ferts are useless.

I used to grow conventionally in-ground, but started organic soil, then organic container, and I'll never go back.  Not preaching, just discovered how nice it is to never have any more problems with deficiency this or that.  I'd be happy to help set you on that path for next season.  I used to battle the same sorts of issues that you're trying to diagnose.

 

[queequeg152]

Out of curiosity I did a little digging and found this info from our local water company regarding calcium.

Mg/l CaCO3 ppm CaCO3 "290"

Mg/l Calcium "116.1"

There are a few other figures too...

So unless I'm reading it wrong that would be 116mg of available calcium per litre of tap water?

http://www.portsmouthwater.co.uk/about-us/default2.aspx?id=1020

My compost was originally around 35-40% peat with a ph of 6.

Would the regular watering of smallish pots with hard water reduce the acidity of the compost thus making the break down of nutrients less effective?

Sorry about all the questions.
:-)

 
 yea im honestly suprised you have so much free calcium? i am assuming that number represents calcium 2+, but i could be wrong. 
 
you are probably right that you do not need additional calcium, but in case you want to try... calcium nitrate is like 2 bucks a lb on ebay here in the US.
 
 
regading PH.
 
yes hard water can drastically increase soil alkalinity and ph, but only if you do not allow for sufficient runoff. always shoot for like 10% runoff.  this runoff should be a 2.5ish EC no higher, for peppers anyway.
 
i cannot comment on miracle grows effect on ph because i do not use it. my gut tells me this fert would acidify soil conditions, and is probably acidic to start with.
ammonium, as plants take it up, release a hydronium ion( H+, or h3o+ ). 
 
This is why so many ferts have approx. 1% ammonium.  This 1% ammonium is supposed to offset the tendency of solutions and soil environments to slowly turn basic from sulfates etc.