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Monsanto makes highly hybridized seeds available to home gardeners

coachspencerxc said:
I'm late to the party but yes. A resounding yes. I find a lot of value in heirloom varieties both from a biological perspective but also a cultural heritage perspective. I wish I had saved the tomato, bean & crowder pea varieties my grandparents grew.
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the context of that was with respect to commercial farmers.
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FROG DOG said:
no speeka da eenglis?? i wrote a paragraph in the english language about what i was talking about. :party:  :party:  :party:
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 to what specifically are you referring. your assertion is baseless without some evidence, a news story at least, "natural news" or otherwise.
 
is there any example of these spores being used sucessfully?

whats funny is... my first reaction to this was, "well hey cool, they should figure out what chemical is killing these bugs, and synthesize it, or produce it in a bio reactor."
 
there are plenty of bio pesticides though. they just arent spores or live bacteria. 
 
theyve isolated plenty of chemicals produced by some random soil microbe found in some random forest in Uruguay in 1969.
they culture these bacterium in giant bio reactors and extract it chemically.
 
abamectin and spiro... bunch of others too.
 
My family were commercial farmers for over 75 years in RI and have been very concerned about GMO, my grandparents were very careful about what was used in the soil and always followed the belief that minimal use of any chemical will produce a cleaner product that the consumer can purchase with the knowledge they are eating a product that is as close to what mother nature herself would provide!!
Science provides us with many useful products in the farming industry!!! But we must be careful not to contaminate are already established strains thru the misuse of any product!!
We half to be careful not to become dependent on anything that was not produced by nature but created in a laboratory!! :)
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I worked in Monsanto's facility in MA and we were made to wear respirators for safety reasons while working in their facility. The smell in and around the plant was unbearable and entire community surrounding the plant stank horribly!! :(
I understand the importance of scientific research in farming!!! We just need to smart enough to know we're to draw the line before we go to far!!
Great discussion guy's!!!! I've enjoyed all comments on both sides!!!
Cheers
 
queequeg152 said:
its 1500 per acre not total . adjust that math accordingly.
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$1500 per acre for seed x 220 acres of land = $330,000 total bill for seed.  A third of a million dollars to plant 220 acres.  That's $33 a pound.  I can get certified organic non GMO seed corn for $11 per pound - and that price is for twenty five pounds.  I imagine I'd get a pretty nice discount on 10k pounds :)
 
What is really difficult is trying to establish the baseline for the extra costs of using natural pesticides on the organic non GMO seeds.  Further we've little data on how many applications per season are needed, as well as what type of yields we can expect per acre.  That said I am confident that with current technology and proper land management/crop rotation organic farming can approach a much higher yield per acre than was previously possible in 'olden times' (read: prior to agribusiness methods)  Indeed this type of crop will not likely return the same bushels per acre as current agribusiness models, but even if it were 75% of current yields and 110% of the price isn't it worth the costs?  
 
I am absolutely certain that we can use current knowledge and technology to produce better (in all ways) food for our race and NOT be beholden to some global agribusiness conglomerate.  <-- That's what this comes down to for me.  For every rice w improved vitamin D that's helping kids in impoverished countries there's a corn with pesticide engineered into it on a molecular level that's going to cross with other natural and engineered crops (already has) and then get out into real nature - thereby jeopardizing all corn.  The days of us blindly trusting for huge conglomerate companies to make all the decisions about what goes into nature are over.  
 
SmokenFire said:
 
$1500 per acre for seed x 220 acres of land = $330,000 total bill for seed.  A third of a million dollars to plant 220 acres.  That's $33 a pound.  I can get certified organic non GMO seed corn for $11 per pound - and that price is for twenty five pounds.  I imagine I'd get a pretty nice discount on 10k pounds :)
 
What is really difficult is trying to establish the baseline for the extra costs of using natural pesticides on the organic non GMO seeds.  Further we've little data on how many applications per season are needed, as well as what type of yields we can expect per acre.  That said I am confident that with current technology and proper land management/crop rotation organic farming can approach a much higher yield per acre than was previously possible in 'olden times' (read: prior to agribusiness methods)  Indeed this type of crop will not likely return the same bushels per acre as current agribusiness models, but even if it were 75% of current yields and 110% of the price isn't it worth the costs?  
 
I am absolutely certain that we can use current knowledge and technology to produce better (in all ways) food for our race and NOT be beholden to some global agribusiness conglomerate.  <-- That's what this comes down to for me.  For every rice w improved vitamin D that's helping kids in impoverished countries there's a corn with pesticide engineered into it on a molecular level that's going to cross with other natural and engineered crops (already has) and then get out into real nature - thereby jeopardizing all corn.  The days of us blindly trusting for huge conglomerate companies to make all the decisions about what goes into nature are over.  
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i read that wrong again.
 
thats his output. hes making 1400 bucks per acre.
 
his seed cost is 114.75 per acre. and hes seeding at 27 lbs per acre, with each lb of seed costing 4.25 dollars.
 
thats 114 per acre for seed right?
 
because the plants are roundup resistant he can spray post emergant costing a total of about
 
10 dollars an acre.
 
he lists the cost of plowing as 29 dollars an acre... this is probably not deep plowing right? it stands to reason that plowing much deeper... the depth one needs to keep weeds at bay would cost more right?
 
how much more? no clue.  but im betting it takes far longer, and costs far more...
 
so not only does his 45 dollar an acre labor cost go up, but so does his 30 dollar an acre plowing cost.
 
or coarse since hes plowing under the land each year, hes also going to have errosion issues... something tells me that the millionaire farmers out there riding in agricultural equipment costing more than my house figured this all out a while back.
in order for it to make sense to avoide the costlier seed...ignoring the environmental issues,  the cost of plowing under + the cost of the additioal labor must be less than the cost of just spraying... and furrowing or what ever they do.

oldsalty said:
 
I worked in Monsanto's facility in MA and we were made to wear respirators for safety reasons while working in their facility. The smell in and around the plant was unbearable and entire community surrounding the plant stank horribly!! :(
I understand the importance of scientific research in farming!!! We just need to smart enough to know we're to draw the line before we go to far!!
Great discussion guy's!!!! I've enjoyed all comments on both sides!!!
Cheers
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what were they doing there?
 
presumably this was some facility producing chemicals?
 
i toured the nalco plant in sugar land tx some time back... these are the guys that made the surfactant they sprayed during the deep horizon oil spill deal...
 
it was a fucking cool place... 3 story tall reactors with huge mezzanines wraping all around them.
 
didnt stink though.
 
ok  -  so @ $4.25 per lb we have $25,245 in seed.  Factoring in $10 an acre herbicide (from what source are you figuring that cost?) we're at $27,625 per acre.  I'm not including the $29 plowing per acre, because planting any deeper should not cost any extra - it's a simple 'set the machinery and it goes' type of thing.  
 
Going back to my earlier post of $11 per lb at 25 pounds:  would it be acceptable to assume at least a 50% discount at 10K lbs?  If so that would be $5.50 per pound - about 25-30% more than GMO seed.  So that would mean it would cost roughly $32,670 before any pesticide is accounted for - a little over 5K more than GMO seed.  
 
SmokenFire said:
ok  -  so @ $4.25 per lb we have $25,245 in seed.  Factoring in $10 an acre herbicide (from what source are you figuring that cost?) we're at $27,625 per acre.  I'm not including the $29 plowing per acre, because planting any deeper should not cost any extra - it's a simple 'set the machinery and it goes' type of thing.  
 
Going back to my earlier post of $11 per lb at 25 pounds:  would it be acceptable to assume at least a 50% discount at 10K lbs?  If so that would be $5.50 per pound - about 25-30% more than GMO seed.  So that would mean it would cost roughly $32,670 before any pesticide is accounted for - a little over 5K more than GMO seed.  
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 i think its very important to note that neither of us are real farmers... so any an all discussion is just a guess....
 
i dont even want to consider comparing old heirloom cultivars, or organic cultivation methods as these are two entirely different things. the organic heirloom crops will yield far less, but will also sell for much more so its very difficult to investigate. it goes without saying however, that both are viable buisneses... as both are currently operating and making profits currently.
my original flawed comparison with made with respect to mr hills assertion that GMO seed did not yield profits sufficient to justify the additional cost of the special GMO seed.
 
if you wan to look at costs associated with organic this and that, compared to conventional, i honestly dont even know where to begin.
 
we should keep the discussion to a comparison between two almost identical approaches, one with GMO cultivars, and another with similar yielding non gmo cultivars.
 
i assert that the cost associated with cultivating non gmo corn grains etc, are more than the costs associated with cultivating gmo crops. lets start there. 
i must also concede that circumstances dictate the vast bulk of what operations go on in any given farm... and that just boiling the discussion down to is x cheaper than Y is a gross over simplification.
id suprised if there was not a great deal of nuance here...
 
Indiana_Jesse said:
My only gripe in regards to GMO's is not the GMO's themselves, but how they are often promoted as the potential savior of humanity. Especially in regards to a changing climate, as if no traditional crops grown elsewhere in the world have drought and heat tolerance, or the ability to withstand pest/disease pressure and offer nutrition. But I understand that (thankfully) it is difficult to patent and promote existing traditional crops, which means there isn't much money to be made by investing in these crops if you are a big ag company. "Creating" your own version of a "familiar" crop which you are allowed to patent is much more lucrative! So how can you blame them ;)
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Plants do it on your own. You're certainly right on that point. Wild capsicums themselves have adapted to different climates without human intervention.
 
I'm not against GMOS, but we need to do more trials on them. They also should be labeled GMO like they do in Europe. We are putting ourselves at risk by eating this stuff without enough testing. Monsanto also didn't test agent orange properly. My uncle got sick from it (finally recognized by the US government) and his son seems to be affected (he is extremely mentally ill). We should also analyze all our crops thoroughly. It was not too long ago that they noticed the protein changed in wheat, which was from traditional breeding.
 
Dulac said:
 
 
Plants do it on your own. You're certainly right on that point. Wild capsicums themselves have adapted to different climates without human intervention.
 
I'm not against GMOS, but we need to do more trials on them. They also should be labeled GMO like they do in Europe. We are putting ourselves at risk by eating this stuff without enough testing. Monsanto also didn't test agent orange properly. My uncle got sick from it (finally recognized by the US government) and his son seems to be affected (he is extremely mentally ill). We should also analyze all our crops thoroughly. It was not too long ago that they noticed the protein changed in wheat, which was from traditional breeding.
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my uncle got sickened by agent orange too lol.
he was like a medic of some sort.... or maby an assistant or a medic... something like that. i know he used to give folks shit loads of shots.
 
regarding agent orange.
 
to be fair to monsanto( btw monsanto did not solely develope agent orange.), back then dioxines were not even known. there was no such thing as HPLC... i dont even think the fancy caplillary GC equipment was out then either. 
i talked a bit about this to my ochem teacher, and old dow chemicals guy, and he indicated that the insanely low concentrations of what ever dioxins were the byproduct of the 2,4-d synthesis were so fantastically low, that they were all but impossible to assay back in the 50s and 60s. i havent however, verified that with any other sources... but i think it stands to reason that if these substances were infact known, and knowingly sprayed all about the world i would have heard about it.
 
also to be fair. the british used the same chemical to some what great sucess in another gurella war that i forget about with apparent great sucess. so the us was like wtf, hey lets try this thing they did over there... see whats up.  
 
HOWEVER... the british kept the problems associated with the herbacide a secrete? or i think they did... or a quasi secrete maby?
idk it was a while back when i read about this on wikipedia and some other places.

axtually they were known of. doxines i mean... but they were not known to be a byproduct of the synthesis of 2,4-d. thats what im saying here.
 
queequeg152 said:
 
thats insanity. why would any farmer operate at a loss? they've been growing round up ready corn and soy... and making a tidy profit for like... 2 decades... some of the patents are already expired and more will this or next year.
 
and while i doubt your numbers, yea organic agriculture has seen a general steady uptick since the late 1990's... this is due to the fear mongering and lies spread.  the organic marketplace is now f**king humongeous. so large that entire grocery store chains cater exclusively to it.... yet folks still whine about forced labeling of non issue gmo ingredients.
if you dont want to eat gmo, buy organic. its simple as that.

and GMO corn is just like any other hybrid corn... the protien expressed for the resistance and the BT protiene etc, have NOTHING to do with the plants productivity itself.
 
its all about reducing the costs of conducting business.  with this trait you can prevent loss of your crops due to pest as well as allow you to spray post and pre emergence with roundup to prevent weed competition and or prevent the need to plow like 12" deep to turn over the soil...

check this out... page three top right.
 
https://extension.usu.edu/newsletters/files/uploads/2013_Budgets/2013_Corn_Grain.pdf
 
see the cost of fertilizer and pesticides?
 
now see the cost of seed?
 
which is bigger?
 
 
now look at page 2. top of the cost breakdowns.
 
 
HE MADE ONE APPLICATION OF HERBICIDES ( pre emergence prob.)  .... at the rate of 1 quart per acre.... he also sprayed some 2,4d at half a quart per acre....
oh my. what a poor steward for the environment. we should beat the soles of his feet with rubber hoses.
 
now look at his TOTAL cost of seed.... 1500 bucks for 220 acres worth of seed... thats 195 bushels of seed. at 50 something lbs per bushel thats around 10,000 lbs of corn seed for 1500 bucks... or 15 cents per pound.
 
please tell me more about how expensive roundup corn is.
 
wholesale commodity pricing sees corn feed priced at less than a penny per lb from what i can see... so as long at your 15 cent lb of gmo corn produces 1500 lbs of corn you are in break even territory...

patents are 20 years btw. i said 7 years earlier, twas a mistake.
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Small scale farmers most times do operate at a lost it's only the Big farmers that really can make money, my wife and I just looked into filing taxes on our farm and was told the Government expects us to operate with out making money but that we couldn't take off all our expenses, so it wasn't even worth Filing taxes as our return would have only been about $200.  
We ate our Profit from the Garden and sheep but the Government doesn't count that lol   

Monsanto made agent orange and said it was safe now they make Round-up ready corn Etc, and say it's safe but now Round-up in in Farmers water and even being found in mothers milk, so how safe will that be in 40 more years??      
 
Mr. Hill said:
Monsanto made agent orange and said it was safe now they make Round-up ready corn Etc, and say it's safe but now Round-up in in Farmers water and even being found in mothers milk, so how safe will that be in 40 more years??      
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Bingo.  Why trust what any huge multinational corporate conglomerate has to say about anything?  They lie to protect shareholders and stock price values.  Do you think for an instant that Monsanto actually gives a shit about your kids or their kids?
 
SmokenFire said:
 
Bingo.  Why trust what any huge multinational corporate conglomerate has to say about anything?  They lie to protect shareholders and stock price values.  Do you think for an instant that Monsanto actually gives a shit about your kids or their kids?
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Well, they do - it's just not for the right reasons ...
 
It's only due to the reality that if their product hurts kids, they'll have a publicity crisis and stock their value will plummet ...
 
It's a self-serving care ...
 
Mr. Hill said:
Monsanto made agent orange and said it was safe now they make Round-up ready corn Etc, and say it's safe but now Round-up in in Farmers water and even being found in mothers milk, so how safe will that be in 40 more years??      
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Define "made"
 
because if you mean "developed"... that is incorrect. It was developed in university labs and then the Military contracted with Dow and Monsanto (the people that had the ability to make it) to manufacture it for the war effort. So, contrary to what most Monsanto-haters will tell you, It was not some homegrown Monsanto project that they lied about toxicity and hid information to sell more chemicals. It was war, the government asked for something, they made it.
 
 
If you ask me, all the ridiculous and blatant lies spread by the "anti" crowd (and im absolutely not accusing anyone here of being that) just end up destroying any good arguments they have. Spend a bit of time reading through the "march against monsanto" (or any other of the multitude of similar) facebook page and you'll end up disgusted with the bad science and blatant propaganda too. The "organic" movement has gotten worse than any corporation out there with propaganda. (though, you could argue that the organic movement is really just funded by corporations anyway)
 
This link is worth checking out if you're curious: http://geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/08/11/monsanto-in-the-anti-gmo-crosshairs-fair-or-foul/ 
I find that site to have some pretty good info for a balanced argument on a lot of biology topics.
 
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