labels Need Help Critiquing Label

I just received the first draft of the Red Thunder label and would love some community input.  I have thoughts of my own but will hold off to see if others independently have the same.  Here it is.  Thanks in advance.
 
Ken
 
KPW_Label_Draft_1.jpg

 
Oops.  I didn't realize there were more coming.
 
KPW_Label_Draft_2.jpg

 
 
 
Others covered most of what I saw as well (so well that I have nothing to add there)

But I will pick a nit with your romance panel.

You want to sound genuine to people - your description is a bit too rife with superfluous flowery adjectives.

Sweet this and smoky that and delicate other and rich and bright and luxurious and tangy and...

You get the point. It reads a little forced. I'd suggest picking the 1-2 featured flavors and being flowery with those ingredients.

Maybe it's just me that'll notice this...but for example, is the brown sugar really "warm"? Hmm



Other grammar nits:
1. "A wonderfully complex sauce of" is a little off. First, I think there are 2 L's. And also, less is more. "Wonderfully" is another unnecessary bit of prose, and "sauce of" doesn't sound right. "Sauce made from" or even better, "Ken's Red Thunder is made from...." - people know it's a sauce. This is an important spot to reinforce the product name. And that way you don't trip over the "sauce of" phrasing.

2. "USE FOR: an all purpose sauce" is also grammatically incorrect. I get that there's a colon there, but the reader is going to read each comma separated value as a complete sentence. "Use for an all purpose hot sauce" is weird phrasing. "Use as" would be correct there.

Either go with the more common "use on" or go with "use as"

I'd suggest putting an exclamation point after "anything!" My bottles read "and pretty much anything!"

Be excited - get people excited about using the product!!!
:)
 
salsalady said:
Label first-
Tick marks on the heat gauge would be OK, don't worry about labeling what is mild, hot, etc on the gauge.  Let the consumer decide if a 4 is mild or medium. 
 
MUCH BETTER on the mountains!!!!!!!!  And the jagged edge on the top and bottom red bands works.  You have some text in the top band and some in the bottom so that looks balanced.  Lightening bolts are looking like they carry through the letters.....
 
NICE JOB! 
 
I missed this previous post about ingredients.  If I may add a dos centavos to LDHS's comments-    
 
First off, don't accept the first co-packer that comes along.  Like LDHS said, it has to be mutually beneficial.
 
Re MASH-
The term "mash" has been cussed and discussed here and elsewhere several times.  What you think of as mash and what the co-packer brings in are 2 VERY DIFFERENT  beasts.  I'm sure I'll for get some, but here's a partial list of all the different terms mash applies to-
-a generic term for ground up produce usually including chiles, strictly referring to the consistency of a product
 
-ground up chiles with no salt, vinegar or other added ingredients, not aged or fermented
-ground up chiles with salt (sometimes up to 20% :eek:), vinegar or any number of other ingredients, not aged or fermented
-ground up chiles allowed to ferment without salt or any additional ingredients
-ground up chiles allowed to ferment with salt only
-ground up chiles allowed to ferment with salt and whatever else is thrown in the mix.....
OK- you get the idea....
 
Some pepper companies sell pepper mash which is strictly ground up chiles, no salt, no ferment.  Some sell ground up chiles with salt in ratios anywhere from 3%-20% salt.  Do the math on that one for something like a Red Savina mash that they are selling for $$$.  I don't know of any of them that sell a fermented mash. 
 
If you try to substitute a commercially purchased "mash" for a mash like what you have on the dining room table....  it just ain't the same animal! 
 
Also, after seeing the recent news clip in the Huy Fong Sriracha factory, and seeing the jalapenos going up the belt with all the stems on....and also seeing another clip of another sauce company using habs with the stems on.....  I dunno... just makes you wonder....  Something to be said for processing chiles in house, or at least having some kind of control/knowledge about what the processor/co-packer is allowing into the sauces.
 
Sounds like the co-packer doesn't want to do any hands-on work like peeling onions.  I would highly question using them.  I use canned mandarin oranges in a sauce and I go through each and every can picking out the few seeds and bits of membrane that are always in there.  If the co-packer won't even offer to peel onions, I doubt they'd do any extra work (like picking out seeds) for the canned products. 
 
And they may do it while you're standing over their shoulder, but if that's their level of effort regarding things like carrots and scallions...what about when you're not there?
 
Hope this helps a bit~
 
I don't think it's lazy to not use fresh.  It's just practical, especially once volumes increase.  If one starts producing several hundred gallons at a time, it's not practical to peel every carrot and onion - at least not if you want to be competitive on price.  That has to be a consideration down the road.  I don't want to have to change my ingredients from fresh to IQF because my volumes increase.  Then the sauce flavor changes, which could be negative.  I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the two, some IQF and some fresh.  I did find a co-packer who can process fresh but I have not yet found anyone who can roast vegetables.  Also, the co-packer who provided that info makes several award-winning hot sauces you and I both like.  They are solid.
 
I will make sure to check on the mash.  Knowing this co-packer, I suspect they are using an unprocessed mash of just peppers and salt.  I have been buying mash from Louisiana Pepper Exchange (http://www.lapepperexchange.com/shopsite/index.html), who probably supply many of the large scale producers.  They told me their mash was fermented for an average of 5-6 months.
 

The Hot Pepper said:
I raised the contrast (overall) just to show you...
 
attachicon.gif
red_thunder.jpg
 
 
That does look good.  I originally had everything in solid black (post #82, pg 5) but I thought the black overwhelmed everything.  But that was w/out the center graphic.  I will have her do a version w/ solid black w/out the charcoal texturing and more contrast on the center panel -except for the mountains. I think when it gets shrunk to 5x3 in. I will want that detail.

Lucky Dog Hot Sauce said:
Others covered most of what I saw as well (so well that I have nothing to add there)

But I will pick a nit with your romance panel.

You want to sound genuine to people - your description is a bit too rife with superfluous flowery adjectives.

Sweet this and smoky that and delicate other and rich and bright and luxurious and tangy and...

You get the point. It reads a little forced. I'd suggest picking the 1-2 featured flavors and being flowery with those ingredients.

Maybe it's just me that'll notice this...but for example, is the brown sugar really "warm"? Hmm



Other grammar nits:
1. "A wonderfully complex sauce of" is a little off. First, I think there are 2 L's. And also, less is more. "Wonderfully" is another unnecessary bit of prose, and "sauce of" doesn't sound right. "Sauce made from" or even better, "Ken's Red Thunder is made from...." - people know it's a sauce. This is an important spot to reinforce the product name. And that way you don't trip over the "sauce of" phrasing.

2. "USE FOR: an all purpose sauce" is also grammatically incorrect. I get that there's a colon there, but the reader is going to read each comma separated value as a complete sentence. "Use for an all purpose hot sauce" is weird phrasing. "Use as" would be correct there.

Either go with the more common "use on" or go with "use as"

I'd suggest putting an exclamation point after "anything!" My bottles read "and pretty much anything!"

Be excited - get people excited about using the product!!!
:)
 
Good points on the verbiage.  It did sound a little awkward but I was focusing elsewhere.  I do like some of those "flowery" adjectives.  I actually googled "adjectives to describe brown sugar" and the one word that showed up everywhere was warm.  I think it all sounds inviting.  Also, I'll just cut to the chase w/ the USED FOR section and leave off the all-purpose stuff.  The exclamation point is in as well as for the tag line.
 
Thanks for all the helpful input. 
 
Ken
 
While you're right that scaling up is challenging for peeling carrots, slicing onions, etc, that's not the only option. I buy hundreds of lbs of fresh onions that are peeled & sliced, sealed in 25 lb bags.

I get my carrots this way too.

Totally scalable,and very practical - yes they're more expensive than buying fresh, but cheaper once labor of peeling/dicing is calculated.

If you're trying to figure out costs, always divide by batch size. A pre-processed ingredient might sound costly until you divide the cost into a 3600 bottle batch - it might only be $0.03/bottle.

Either way the sauce it going to taste a hell of a lot better with fresh carrot than it will with canned carrot. Same with chives and garlic. I agree with SL - that kitchen is being lazy. Those are ingredients that are readily available fresh with prep work done for you. Just as easy for the co-packer to source and even easier to use (e.g. Cutting a bag open as opposed to opening dozens of cans)

I highly recommend getting a quote from another co-packer & checking their plan for processing your product. Way easier now than down the road. Quality should be paramount & canned anything will be worse for your product than fresh. I've done taste comparisons on canned vs fresh and & it's not close.
:cheers:
PepperDaddy said:
 I do like some of those "flowery" adjectives.  I actually googled "adjectives to describe brown sugar" and the one word that showed up everywhere was warm.
I like them too - individually. When I first wrote my romance panel it sounded exactly like that - every ingredient called out with some fluffy bullshit descriptor. And when enough people mocked me for it I re-wrote it so it's more straightforward. Like I said - brown sugar is just an example. With so many descriptors it's a bit overwhelming.

But while I'm at it, I would take brown sugar out of that section altogether - a rising number of people are avoiding sugar in their diet. Best to downplay it. My sauces have less than 30 mg/tsp, and I still get my ear bent about it. So much that my 2 new flavors have 0. I'm not saying to take the brown sugar out of the sauce, but mentioning it as a featured ingredient is a misstep in my opinion, "warm" or not.

For the "use on" or "us as" section, it's pretty important to have the product name there. "Use Ken's Red Thunder on..." "Ken's Red Thunder is..."

Whatever the phrasing, this is an opportunity to reinforce your branding & tie together "Ken's Pepper Works" and "Red Thunder". While it seems obvious to you', always assume that the consumer is not going to connect the dots - tell them what you want them to know, and reinforce that as often as possible.
 
Settling for canned ingredients now because you think when you upscale you will be forced to later, is like saying "Hey I'm gonna make this crappy movie because the studio's gonna change it all anyway. So I think I'll just make a crappy one."  Huh?
 
Man, go for the best, and try to keep it there. It IS possible. Maybe once you get successful you don't co-pack, you build a factory and control everything. Sacrificing quality now is certainly not going to help you to get to the point of having to even make those decisions later.
 
Something to keep in mind: the co-packer works for you. You're paying them for a service.

Don't let them dictate to you how your sauce will be made, what process they use or what ingredients they include. Those are your decisions to own.

I was fortunate - my co-packer walked me through how they work - I am there for every batch. When it's a new batch, I'm there working side by side with the staff on prep. I tell them when to add what ingredients, any "special preparation" or other nuances of my sauces. You're entering a business deal, contracting that co-packer to work for you.

I met with several before committing to one - and it was hard to get in because they're good. I had others try to boss me around or act like they were doing me a favor by letting me pay them to make thousands of bottles of sauce. My current co-packer treats me with respect as a paying customer - we work together to formulate my prototype recipes & scale them out. He looks out for me by occasionally suggesting some alternate ingredients - sometimes i agree, sometimes I don't. But the final decision is with me. I'm paying for the product, it's ultimately my call what goes in it.

Food for thought....
 
The Hot Pepper said:
Settling for canned ingredients now because you think when you upscale you will be forced to later, is like saying "Hey I'm gonna make this crappy movie because the studio's gonna change it all anyway. So I think I'll just make a crappy one."  Huh?
 
Man, go for the best, and try to keep it there. It IS possible. Maybe once you get successful you don't co-pack, you build a factory and control everything. Sacrificing quality now is certainly not going to help you to get to the point of having to even make those decisions later.
 
Everyone is getting carried away w/ the canned stuff.  I have no plans to use anything canned.  I was just relaying information provided to me.  I was shocked that those canned ingredients were used by this co-packer because of all their awards and how good their sauces are. But as I thought about it, the award-winning sauces and every sauce I have had from them is fruit based or contains no vegetables (mostly spices, citrus, etc).  That is fine for IQF. Canned tomatillos and jar garlic is not.  Although, they did say they can get any ingredients I specify, they just provided the stuff they normally use.
 
I will be going for the best.  The problem is finding a co-packer that's not 2,000 miles away that can do fresh vegetables.  I know they are out there. I have yet to find one that can roast. Unfortunately, there is a good co-packer in KC - only 4 hrs away - but they want me to pay $500/sauce and provide all ingredients to make a 4-gallon batch before they give me a quote.  I ain't paying 2K for price estimates.  I got the same from a Florida co-packer who wanted $950/sauce up front and once the recipe was final they would give me a price and start production.  That protects them at my expense.
 
The next label will be the final. Thanks everyone. 
 
Ken
 
Sounds like you're on top of it!

Next label final... cool! Don't even show us. Have multiple people check it for errors privately unless you want more feedback. :D
 
I paid for all of my test batches. That's a very standard practice. They have to shut down their other runs to work on it, plus sourcing & R&D & establishing trust etc, I don't see why they wouldn't charge you for that? If they're good (and you said they are) then they'll make a few test batches for that - with maybe more for materials depending. And you'll get all that sauce.
 
Lucky Dog Hot Sauce said:
I paid for all of my test batches. That's a very standard practice. They have to shut down their other runs to work on it, plus sourcing & R&D & establishing trust etc, I don't see why they wouldn't charge you for that? If they're good (and you said they are) then they'll make a few test batches for that - with maybe more for materials depending. And you'll get all that sauce.
 
I don't mind paying for test batches.  I expect it.  That cost also includes nutritional analysis.  But I shouldn't have to pay the cost upfront before they will give me a price estimate.  Otherwise there's no point in getting prices from more than one co-packer.  I would just pick one and go w/ them and hope when it's all said and done they give me a reasonable cost.  That doesn't seem right.
 
Rhetorical question for PepperDaddy and other new sauce makers-
 
how confident are you in you're recipes?  If you are not 110% dialed in on your recipe, I have to side with the co-packer. 
 
 
One co-packer I talked to wants $600 to do a 6 gallon test batch.  WTF???  I'm NOT in R & D phase!  I've been making 8 gallon batches for years...I'm confident in my recipe and it's scalability.  I don't need a $600 test batch!  
 
Do the math on that-
$600 not including COG, labels, etc for 8 gallons = (8x24 [5oz woozies])= add in at least $400 for bottle, goods, shitnstuff= $1000 for a test batch of (192) 5-oz bottles. 
 
bottom line of that equation=  Production cost of $5.21 per bottle!!!!!!!!
 
 
 
It seems like there are a few different roads for new processors.... 
 
Pay the $$$$ to work with the processor to run through multiple runs, do the test marketing, dial it in...rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat...$$$$....
 
Make it yourself in your home kitchen, document everything down to the nano-gram, take it everywhere, give it away for free, offer free samples for feedback...rinse, repeat about 10 times...THEN! talk to the co-packer...
 
Get usage in a kitchen somewhere.  Do the processing yourself,  legally sell at FM  and wherever, Make the processing mistakes...try to sell it with too much (whatever), make the next batch with less (whatever)...and THEN...talk to the co-packer.
 
 
 
I guess this post is a "where are you at with your sauce in terms of handing the recipe over to another person to make"? 
 
Could you write it down just like a recipe in the Joy Of Cooking Cookbook and every cook in the world could follow the recipe and it would turn out the same?  If not, you might be looking at Option 1.... 
 
 
Once again, rhetorical questions meant for consideration, not specific to Ken's Pepperworks. 
 
PepperDaddy said:
 
I don't mind paying for test batches.  I expect it.  That cost also includes nutritional analysis.  But I shouldn't have to pay the cost upfront before they will give me a price estimate.  Otherwise there's no point in getting prices from more than one co-packer.  I would just pick one and go w/ them and hope when it's all said and done they give me a reasonable cost.  That doesn't seem right.
 
Chicken & the egg. My point was you're not making "standard batches" - you're scaling out batches and they won't know your costs until they've done it.
 
Think of it as two separate processes. 
1. Figure out how much it will cost to make your sauce, once it's scaled out to your satisfaction. This may take 1, 2 or 5 test batches. They will charge you, up front, because they need to buy more than they need of everything & put the time into engineering your product. You'll taste it & tweak it, lather, rinse, repeat & when the dust has settled, they'll know how much it costs to make the final version. 
 
2. Production runs. 
 
I hope this makes more sense. I had to pay up front during the test batch process too - plus I was a new customer so the policy is to pay 100% down. Once I became a repeat client, my payment structure is different. I very much doubt you'll find a co-packer that does it differently than this. Best of luck! 

salsalady said:
Make it yourself in your home kitchen, document everything down to the nano-gram, take it everywhere, give it away for free, offer free samples for feedback...rinse, repeat about 10 times...THEN! talk to the co-packer...
 
Great point!  This process saved me a LOT of $$$!  Of my 6 recipes, the only one where I didn't consider the test batch 98% close enough was the 1st 70 cases of Black Label, (which I discounted to cost & sold at farmer's markets only). A lot of folks liked it - I hated it - but based on that I knew what to change.
 
By dialing it in at home making dozens of batches, the only issues with scaling my sauces from 1-2 gal to 100-150 gal was the salt. And my co-packer is a really sharp food scientist who urged me to start with 50% of my original spec & add a lb at a time, cool, taste, add, cool, taste, add until it was just right for me. And he was spot on - at about 60% it tasted like my prototype. Since I could do that while cooking, it meant my "test batches" of Green Red & Orange were all production batches. I did make very minor changes to them for the 2nd (full) runs, but all extremely subtle. 
 
Now that said, every ingredient is different - I'm not saying you'll be guaranteed to have no issues with your sauces if you spend a lot more time prototyping at home. There may well be other ingredients that don't scale well. But prototyping & keeping spreadsheets to the 10th of a gm for every ingredient certainly reduces the chances of being way way off, and if tweaks are needed they may be so minor that they don't even constitute a reformulation. (ask SL how fun those are. submit to the state again, update labels, etc, etc - ugh) 
 
I'd suggest rinsing & repeating at least 10 times. 
;)
 
Good suggestion Ann. Spot on. :cheers:

(I answered because technically I'm still a new saucemaker. :p )
 
Lucky Dog Hot Sauce said:
 
(I answered because technically I'm still a new saucemaker. :P )
According to some, so am I. 
 
 
 
 
LDHS has great first hand knowledge for dealing with co-packers.  Words of wisdom.
 
 
 
Just remember- Lather, Rinse, Repeat!!!!
 
:lol:
 
Any thoughts on my Rio Grande Mud label?  I have taken this to the point that I consider it final but would love to know your comments.  I used a stock photo and added a sunset a couple cacti and a few other mods. Thanks.
 
Ken
 
Label_Rio_Grande_Draft_4.jpg

 
 
 
 
 
I like the background picture - it's a pleasing label, and a well balanced photo. 
 
I don't like the name of the sauce. "Mud" doesn't bring delicious thoughts to mind, and the brown-beige color is a little less than aesthetically pleasing. I'd consider lightening that up to a lighter beige. Maybe something like the THP background theme beige. 
 
In the romance panel I'd suggest "satisfyingly savory sauce", though I'm not that fond of alliteration. Personally I'd go with "complex and savory sauce". 
 
Also not wild about the black product name and the positioning of the words. I see RIO MUD at 1st glance - at 2nd glance it looked like "MUD SAUCE" -  it's a lot of words to squeeze into that space I realize, but the current set-up could use some massaging so it's clear what the product name is. 
 
My $0.02 - all that said I think this is potentially your most successful label so far. I love the background imagery. :cheers:
 
Thanks LD.  On my phone the banners are lighter brown, close to the THP color, but darker on the computer screen.  My phone has the better screen and it should show up as lighter when printed.  I also had the background "glow" around the sauce name removed because of some funky reddish glow it gave off.  It was easier to read w/ the outer glow and will add that back. That should help w/ the readability.
 
PepperDaddy said:
Thanks LD.  On my phone the banners are lighter brown, close to the THP color, but darker on the computer screen.  My phone has the better screen and it should show up as lighter when printed.  I also had the background "glow" around the sauce name removed because of some funky reddish glow it gave off.  It was easier to read w/ the outer glow and will add that back. That should help w/ the readability.
 
I was going to suggest a "halo" effect or "glow" - something to bring the name to the front. 
 
I like the picture and think that the label is well balanced, but have you considered changing the name Mud? That was the first thing that sprang at me, coupled with the brown in the background of the label...not something that sound particularly appetizing.
 
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