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Really hope you just forgot to add the winkie. ->   ;)


I don't think about this seriously, I'm afraid ...

There's so many more pressing issues, really ...
 
grantmichaels said:
 
The longer you don't see the elephant in the room - which is that you are explaining Judaism to a f**king Jew ...
 
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, but, you live in Sarasota. That is the most disconnected Jewish community I've ever seen. There's about 17,000 Jews there and maybe only 3 or 4 families are shomer shabbat. Most of them can barely read Hebrew. Sarasota and the Jews that live there are a fine example of assimilated. Tell me, did you go to yeshiva? Which one and for how long? Or maybe you studied it in university? I'm almost certain you didn't do either. We're speaking different languages. You probably do need it explained to you. You probably agree that the lack of a mitzvah to believe in God is good because you're an atheist, agnostic, or secular. The mitzvah is to know there's a God. Which means you have a legal imperative to understand that there IS* a God, not that there isn't. That means you have to do endless research and investigation in order to make it happen. Belief is not a part of Judaism. Belief, by and large, is credulity. I'm not really interested in arguing about this point, but, I don't think you knew that. Nor do you know where I sourced this from, I suspect
 
Geonerd said:
 
 
You can dance around and make apologetic noises regarding the origins of these activities, but the snipping (what a wonderful euphemism for whacking off a slice of extremely sensitive tissue) and bloody chicken waving is STILL GOING ON.  (WTF is it with you Abrahamics and the obsessions over sex and blood?)  Both are acts of wildly irrational barbarism. (Unless it's just a convenient excuse for the Rabbi to suck the kid's bleedding dick.  There we go again - blood and sex!  Wheee! )  I don't know which is worse, blind obedience to ancient pagan ritual or actively choosing, as you seem to imply, to continue such insanity. 
 
As for questioning the status quo , try asking your Rabbi if you can skip the genital mutilation when your kid comes of age.  See how far that goes...
 
I've got to ask, why did you start this thread in the first place?  You seem quite keen on dishing out disrespect, but get all brittle and butthurt when people return serve.  Maybe you're really just Heckle, Weed, or whatever he's calling himself these days, on a drunken posting rampage?  You two certainly share the same sneering air of superiority.
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The whole time we've been discussing this has been in relation to one statement: your implication that Judaism is a cult. I say it's not. Not one of you has what to argue against that so far. If you do, bring it forward. Otherwise, shut up. I don't care if you disagree with my beliefs. I have zero expectation for you to agree with them. If you did agree with them, perhaps you'd be following the same practices that I do. But, you don't and that's fine. However, you don't know anything about them and you still have to qualify your statement that it's cultic. Ritual that you don't understand does not make something a cult. The argument here, unfortunately you can't tell, is not about whether you agree with or disrespect my religion. The argument is whether or not you've got what to stand on for calling it cultic. That is the ENTIRTIY of this discussion. So far, not one of you has even come close to giving a good reason to say otherwise. If you have something true to say, spit it out. So far, I've seen nothing but absolute nonsense. If you can come up with something to qualify that statement, I'll concede you've got a point. In the mean time, keep trying.
 
grantmichaels said:
 
 
Furthermore, you are attributing errantly something about cults to me, where I never have talked about cults in this thread.
 
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See where the discussion started and where YOU decided to make a point of insulting me for disagreeing with Geonerds comment. You viewed it as condescending, it was not. If you want to call me condescending for calling him out for being mistaken for calling it a cult, I'll assume you probably are in somewhat a state of agreement with that. There was no condescending tone in what I said. He really doesn't know about it so he can't call it a cult. Perhaps to some extent I was mistaken to include you into that aspect of it. But, you're a dick.
 
cult
play

noun \ˈkəlt\



Simple Definition of cult

Popularity: Top 10% of words



  • : a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

  • : a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

  • : a small group of very devoted supporters or fans   




Full Definition of cult


  1. 1 :  formal religious veneration :  worship

  2. 2 :  a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also :  its body of adherents

  3. 3 :  a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also :  its body of adherents

  4. 4 :  a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

  5. 5 a :  great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially :  such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b :  the object of such devotion c :  a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

all religions, by definition can fall into the category of a cult
 
Student of Spice said:
 



cult play

noun \ˈkəlt\

Simple Definition of cult
Popularity: Top 10% of words



  • : a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

  • : a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

  • : a small group of very devoted supporters or fans   



Full Definition of cult


  1. 1 :  formal religious veneration :  worship

  2. 2 :  a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also :  its body of adherents

  3. 3 :  a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also :  its body of adherents

  4. 4 :  a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

  5. 5 a :  great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially :  such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b :  the object of such devotion c :  a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion


all religions, by definition can fall into the category of a cult
 
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Yes. Most of those definitions are proverbial, though. Not that I'm entirely against the use of "cult" in common vernacular outside it's true definition, but, if you're going to try and qualify something as a cult; there is technically a sociological and legal definition.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
 
Here's an even better read, which is more along the way I prefer to view a cult. I'd change it a bit in some parts. But, it makes more sense to me:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/27/cults-definition-religion
 
booo wiki is such a bad reference tool
 
but, many in society consider religions of any form a cult. not that its a bad thing, it just tends to be a bad thing to those that think their religion is something special or better than the belief of others and so refer to the beliefs of others as cult worship.
 
Student of Spice said:
booo wiki is such a bad reference tool
 
but, many in society consider religions of any form a cult. not that its a bad thing, it just tends to be a bad thing to those that think their religion is something special or better than the belief of others and so refer to the beliefs of others as cult worship.
Click to expand...
 
I think it depends on how you use the word "cult". If you're going to call it cult in the broad sense of the word, fine, you could indeed call all religion cultic. But, I'm still reluctant to accept that definition. Not because I view it as a four letter word (even though it technically is), but, it just seems to result in tautology and to some extent contradiction in definition. I don't really see how one can use the word "cult" in an all encompassing way for all religion. If that's what we're talking about, then, I concede that they've got a point. But, logic follows that one shouldn't really use it as a four letter word any more than one would use religion the same way.
 
yochannontzvi said:
 
I think it depends on how you use the word "cult". If you're going to call it cult in the broad sense of the word, fine, you could indeed call all religion cultic. That, however, only takes into account modern adaptations of the word "cult". But, I'm still reluctant to accept that definition. Not because I view it as a four letter word (even though it technically is), but, it just seems to result in tautology and to some extent contradiction in definition. I don't really see how one can use the word "cult" in an all encompassing way for all religion. If that's what we're talking about, then, I concede that they've got a point. But, logic follows that one shouldn't really use it as a four letter word any more than one would use religion the same way.
Click to expand...
 
So if I am understanding your point, you say that that the modern adaptations of the word cult is the definition of all religions being cults, and that it was previously defined as what? Something evil and sinister, a group of druids throwing eyes of newt into a cauldron? It wasn't until the past 50 years or so that the word cult was used in a derogative fashion. So if you're all about keeping it old school, "One of the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The word is derived from the French word "culte" which came from Latin noun "cultus." The latter is related to the Latin verb "colere" which means "to worship or give reverence to a deity." Thus, in its original meaning, the term "cult" can be applied to any group of religious believers".
 
yochannontzvi said:
 
I think it depends on how you use the word "cult". If you're going to call it cult in the broad sense of the word, fine, you could indeed call all religion cultic. But, I'm still reluctant to accept that definition. Not because I view it as a four letter word (even though it technically is), but, it just seems to result in tautology and to some extent contradiction in definition. I don't really see how one can use the word "cult" in an all encompassing way for all religion. If that's what we're talking about, then, I concede that they've got a point. But, logic follows that one shouldn't really use it as a four letter word any more than one would use religion the same way.
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I see you modified your stance with the exclusion of your sentence "That, however, only takes into account modern adaptations of the word "cult"."
Im also assuming you then no longer feel that the definition of the word is just the modern adaptation?
 
Student of Spice said:
 
So if I am understanding your point, you say that that the modern adaptations of the word cult is the definition of all religions being cults, and that it was previously defined as what? Something evil and sinister, a group of druids throwing eyes of newt into a cauldron? It wasn't until the past 50 years or so that the word cult was used in a derogative fashion. So if you're all about keeping it old school, "One of the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The word is derived from the French word "culte" which came from Latin noun "cultus." The latter is related to the Latin verb "colere" which means "to worship or give reverence to a deity." Thus, in its original meaning, the term "cult" can be applied to any group of religious believers".
Click to expand...
 
No, that was misspoken on my behalf. But, the stigmatic usage of it has little to do with the original definition.
 
Student of Spice said:
I see you modified your stance with the exclusion of your sentence "That, however, only takes into account modern adaptations of the word "cult"."
Im also assuming you then no longer feel that the definition of the word is just the modern adaptation?
Click to expand...
 
The definition of a word changes with usage. The original definition is still pertinent. The overall message still remains the same, though. I was correcting that I misspoke.
 
yochannontzvi said:
 
Yeah, but, you live in Sarasota. That is the most disconnected Jewish community I've ever seen. There's about 17,000 Jews there and maybe only 3 or 4 families are shomer shabbat. Most of them can barely read Hebrew. Sarasota and the Jews that live there are a fine example of assimilated. Tell me, did you go to yeshiva? Which one and for how long? Or maybe you studied it in university? I'm almost certain you didn't do either. We're speaking different languages. You probably do need it explained to you. You probably agree that the lack of a mitzvah to believe in God is good because you're an atheist, agnostic, or secular. The mitzvah is to know there's a God. Which means you have a legal imperative to understand that there IS* a God, not that there isn't. That means you have to do endless research and investigation in order to make it happen. Belief is not a part of Judaism. Belief, by and large, is credulity. I'm not really interested in arguing about this point, but, I don't think you knew that. Nor do you know where I sourced this from, I suspect
 
 
The whole time we've been discussing this has been in relation to one statement: your implication that Judaism is a cult. I say it's not. Not one of you has what to argue against that so far. If you do, bring it forward. Otherwise, shut up. I don't care if you disagree with my beliefs. I have zero expectation for you to agree with them. If you did agree with them, perhaps you'd be following the same practices that I do. But, you don't and that's fine. However, you don't know anything about them and you still have to qualify your statement that it's cultic. Ritual that you don't understand does not make something a cult. The argument here, unfortunately you can't tell, is not about whether you agree with or disrespect my religion. The argument is whether or not you've got what to stand on for calling it cultic. That is the ENTIRTIY of this discussion. So far, not one of you has even come close to giving a good reason to say otherwise. If you have something true to say, spit it out. So far, I've seen nothing but absolute nonsense. If you can come up with something to qualify that statement, I'll concede you've got a point. In the mean time, keep trying.
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addressing that in italics first, his location on this globe does not mean that he is any less jewish than you.
 
secondly in red, i think our last few exchanges have addressed that.
 
thank you. have a good day.
 
Student of Spice said:
addressing that in italics first, his location on this globe does not mean that he is any less jewish than you.
 
secondly in red, i think our last few exchanges have addressed that.
 
thank you. have a good day.
Click to expand...
 
I'll concede you can in a certain regard call it a cult, though. Until you said it, no one else really did. It's not a cult in the stigmatic way they sought to use it, but, whatever, who's reading into hyperbole anyways? 
 
I don't harbor the belief for a split second that he's less Jewish than I am. Not in the remotest sense. You're either Jewish or you're not. There's no in between and you're fully entitled to call yourself a Jew if your mother is Jewish or you converted kosher. I'll never say he's less Jewish than I am. I am certain that he knows very little or nothing about Judaism, though. I know or know of every single frum/shomer mitzvot Jew in Sarasota and the tri-county area; he's not one of them. If I said "frum" or "shomer mitzvot" in front of any of them, they probably wouldn't know what I mean. I'm just saying, I don't think he has any exposure to Judaism. He's still just as Jewish as I am, though. I may sound arrogant, but, I'm pretty sure I'm right about that. Unless he's some tuna beigel from Monsey who ran away from the borscht velt or something, you can rest assured I'm 99.99% right. It's not such an elephant in the room.
 
This is again a fine example of people misreading what I've been saying. I can say he knows nothing or very little and he's still just as Jewish as I am. There's no piety meter that makes you better than the next, either. If my comment is going to or can be read that way, I think it demonstrates further that we're essentially speaking two different languages. Explaining it in a forum like this is sort of futile.
 
That being said, apologies for coming off so strong to anyone. Nothing personal.
 
yochannontzvi said:
 
I'll concede you can in a certain regard call it a cult, though. Until you said it, no one else really did. It's not a cult in the stigmatic way they sought to use it, but, whatever, who's reading into hyperbole anyways? 
 
I don't harbor the belief for a split second that he's less Jewish than I am. Not in the remotest sense. You're either Jewish or you're not. There's no in between and you're fully entitled to call yourself a Jew if your mother is Jewish or you converted kosher. I'll never say he's less Jewish than I am. I am certain that he knows very little or nothing about Judaism, though. I know or know of every single frum/shomer mitzvot Jew in Sarasota and the tri-county area; he's not one of them. If I said "frum" or "shomer mitzvot" in front of any of them, they probably wouldn't know what I mean. I'm just saying, I don't think he has any exposure to Judaism. He's still just as Jewish as I am, though. I may sound arrogant, but, I'm pretty sure I'm right about that. Unless he's some tuna beigel from Monsey who ran away from the borscht velt or something, you can rest assured I'm 99.99% right. It's not such an elephant in the room.
 
This is again a fine example of people misreading what I've been saying. I can say he knows nothing or very little and he's still just as Jewish as I am. There's no piety meter that makes you better than the next, either. If my comment is going to or can be read that way, I think it demonstrates further that we're essentially speaking two different languages. Explaining it in a forum like this is sort of futile.
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Is it that people are misreading what you are saying, or are you misspeaking and people are reading that? you have been heavy handed with the edit tool this morning ;)
 
Why is "explaining it on a forum like this is sort of futile"? Are you saying I am incapable of understanding, or other members on this board? Are you implying your level of intellect is far superior to other members on this board and it would be a waste of your time? I have read everything you have said and I may not be an expert....but I am pretty sure we have been speaking the same language.
 
Student of Spice said:
Is it that people are misreading what you are saying, or are you misspeaking and people are reading that? you have been heavy handed with the edit tool this morning ;)
 
Why is "explaining it on a forum like this is sort of futile"? Are you saying I am incapable of understanding, or other members on this board? Are you implying your level of intellect is far superior to other members on this board and it would be a waste of your time? I have read everything you have said and I may not be an expert....but I am pretty sure we have been speaking the same language.
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Yeah, I'm multitasking. The edit tool is godsend for me at times. It's not that you or others couldn't understand what I'm getting at. It's just different and I'm not particularly interested in slashing away at preconceptions people have about it. It's too much work. I really don't think we have been speaking the same language, entirely. Judaism is a process. You need to start from the ground up to understand it properly. I don't see a lot of point in explaining snippets of my belief. Think of it like comparing the Hellenist mind to that of the Hebrew mind during the times of the Second Temple. The only crossover was that the Greeks appreciated the sophistication of the legal system and certain philosophical aspects. The way they looked at things was completely different. Does that mean one is smarter than the other or incapable of understanding what the other thinks? Not at all. But, it's a fundamentally different outlook that requires some degree of reprogramming for another to understand. It doesn't matter if you're Jewish or not. 
 
D3monic said:
You can't sit there and mock ones beliefs and they get your panties in a bunch over your own beliefs. Especially if they are all based off spiritual nonsense. 
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     Agreed. This thread is chock full of irony and hair-splitting.
 
yochannontzvi said:
 
Yeah, I'm multitasking. The edit tool is godsend for me at times. It's not that you or others couldn't understand what I'm getting at. It's just different and I'm not particularly interested in slashing away at preconceptions people have about it. It's too much work. I really don't think we have been speaking the same language, entirely. Judaism is a process. You need to start from the ground up to understand it properly. I don't see a lot of point in explaining snippets of my belief. Think of it like comparing the Hellenist mind to that of the Hebrew mind during the times of the Second Temple. The only crossover was that the Greeks appreciated the sophistication of the legal system and certain philosophical aspects. The way they looked at things was completely different. Does that mean one is smarter than the other or incapable of understanding what the other thinks? Not at all. But, it's a fundamentally different outlook that requires some degree of reprogramming for another to understand. It doesn't matter if you're Jewish or not. 
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Do you know what you are getting at? I thought what you were getting at was to defend how your religion, or any other for that matter is not a cult? (see post #63). Since we have established it is, as is all religions.....I am not saying anything against your religion or any others, I for one have none. We are speaking the same language, there is nothing you could say in English that i nor most here on THP would not understand. Now, agree with is completely a different thing. I understand the purpose for some to have beliefs, there is a certain bliss to ignorance. Everyone having a higher purpose, a sense of importance, each the center of the universe.
 
 
Yeah, but, you live in Sarasota. That is the most disconnected Jewish community I've ever seen. There's about 17,000 Jews there and maybe only 3 or 4 families are shomer shabbat. Most of them can barely read Hebrew. Sarasota and the Jews that live there are a fine example of assimilated. Tell me, did you go to yeshiva? Which one and for how long? Or maybe you studied it in university? I'm almost certain you didn't do either. We're speaking different languages. You probably do need it explained to you. You probably agree that the lack of a mitzvah to believe in God is good because you're an atheist, agnostic, or secular.


I design a kosher kitchen most every week throughout the year, and those are for orthodox Jews here - of which there are many, many more than 3-4, lol ...

but, more importantly ... you seem to have lost touch w/ what makes your freedom and likely existence possible in the first place - money and politcal pressure from people like all of us.

now I just feel like I wasted a lifetime's tzedakah on you ...

better hope all the other families of diasporadic Jews around the globe don't find out how thankless you are ...
 
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