Opinions on individuals selling seeds

coheed196

coheed196

I am curious as to what the opinions of you guys here are on an individual selling seeds. I know there are a few members here that are very outspoken and totally against an individual selling seeds. (By individual I mean somebody who is just a hobby grower and not a legal business)

I personally have sold seeds on this forum, I have also given away literally thousands of seeds as well. I am not looking to make a ton of money off of the seeds I sell but just maybe make enough to cover the cost of materials needed to keep and grow the peppers we all love.

I do not mind any individual selling seeds at all as long as the price is reasonably competitive and is not causing the legal businesses to lower their prices to an extent where they can't turn a profit and as long as the seller does not make false claims such as the seeds were isolated when they were not. The reasons I don't mind seeing individuals selling seeds are: If a legal business does not have seeds available for a variety I am wanting to grow. I can't find anybody willing to trade or do a SASBE for a variety I'm looking to grow. I don't want to wait around for a giveaway or contest of sorts that I may or may not win, or I don't want to wait until the summer when all the fresh pod auctions and sales start to flow and buy the pods and then dry the seeds myself because then it would be way too late to start the seeds this season (at least for my growing climate anyways)

For the members that are totally against individuals selling seeds, I am just curious as to why you feel that way. If you do not want somebody selling seeds, what's the difference in selling fresh pods? Both seeds and pods cost money and time to produce. If you want somebody to just give away seeds or pods, then why not just give away the whole plant? A bubble envelope with around 10 baggies of seeds sent 1st class mail cost me $2.07 to mail in the US. A 7 X 7 X 4 box with (1) 3.5" square pot and plant / seedling in it sent priority in the US cost me $7.68, so a difference of just at $5. I personally just do not see the difference in selling seeds and selling pods or starter plants. All of them take considerable time and money to produce, so why does it matter if I try to recoup some of that cost? I just see posts all the time on seed auctions and sells started by a non vendor saying "seeds should be given away" and I have absolutely never seen anybody saying that on a fresh pod or starter plant sell / auction.

I did not post this trying to get a rise out of anybody or to start a war / bashing session of any kind. I really hope this stays civil. I am just honestly curious as to what others here think about it. Anyways, thank you for reading.

Vincent Kelley
 
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Well, I have a couple outlooks on this. My first regret is I ever sent those particular pods out to anyone to begin with as I made an honest mistake. My original supplier wanted to grow them out more to see what they were before distributing. This is my first time in years and years I messed up, but it won't happen again. Second, my fault not realizing these were not true Chocolate Morougas (I had no idea one even EXISTED prior to the last six months). I was not trying to deceive anyone by re-naming. I don't do that. I grow tons and tons of varieties and do my darnest to keep labels/names straight. It can be daunting. You can't win them all. That apparently was a Chocolate Scorpion Cross (not stable).

I can't say I'm angry, but I personally wouldn't buy pods and strip and sell seeds myself. In general, I retain a simple outlook on things.. If what I do loses trust, it's not worth it. This is a very small community. I get the opportunity to grow/try good things because I hold to my word. I have had endless people ask me for 7 Pot Evergreen seeds or White Bhut Jolokia, seeds but they don't go out regardless. .I'm very bothered by how many organization's / people's varieties slip through the cracks and wind up on seed seller's sites now. Something is not right. I feel it's MY responsibility to only offer something in a pod sale box that should be in there. If those Chocolate Morougas, or so called cross now, went out to seed vendors, then they now have to worry about something unstable.

In the big picture, once a box of pods leaves my hands and someone buys it, he/she can do whatever they please. I don't believe in a strings attached philosophy. Deseeding them and selling them does bug me a bit, but it's not unethical. You paid for the goods. You own them. It's like a month ago I went to a Salvation Army store, picked up a Cutco knife block for $3 and sold it for $100 on Ebay. I recognized the value...the staff there didn't. $97 profit for me. :) Not really much different, right? The only difference may be your end buyer. I KNOW I had a Cutco knife block. Seeds are from non-isolated pods. Whether anyone 'says so' or not, people generally expect the plant will produce what you say it will. It's human nature.

So what I;m saying is I wouldn't do this practice, but I am not going to go around telling anyone it's morally wrong. You bought goods. They are yours - end of story. :)

Regarding you picking pods for seven hours at SS's place...hell that's a lot of work. I know from experience. If he gave you the go ahead, I see no issues. He knew exactly what you intended to do with the produce. You had something people wanted...the end buyer is happy, you win. :)

coheed196 said:
Chris I am so happy that you dropped in. Reason being is the Chocolate Morougas I have offered for sale are from a SFRB of pods I bought from you last year. Are you mad or angry that I bought pods off of you and de-seeded them and now have offered those seeds for sale?
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Dulac said:
Open-pollinated doesn't mean not isolated. Open-pollinated plants can be isolated. For example you plant 4 bhut jolokias and cover the 4 together with mosquito netting to isolate them from other varieties that could cross-pollinate with them. Or you could grow a bunch of bhut jolokias in one area and grow another variety a couple miles away, which is not too practical.
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Thank you. I've been harping on this point for awhile now. Basically, we deal with two kinds of plants, open-pollinated and hybrid. An open-pollinated strain or variety is one that breeds true to phenotype when pollinated only by its own kind. (There can still be random mutations and rare recessive traits and this is where some of the new varieties come from.) Hybrids result from cross-pollination between two different varieties and can become a unique open-pollinated strain over several generations by crossing them only with their own kind and selecting for a specific phenotype. This seems to be a popular activity amongst the folks here on THP. In my opinion, too many people are saying, "open-pollinated" when they really mean, "has the potential to have been cross-pollinated (with a different variety)", or simply, "not isolated".

(I realize there is a different, more technical, sense of the term "open-pollinated", but that sense is primarily used by botanists and other plant scientists. The sense I've presented here is the sense used by most hobbyists, heirloom gardeners and seed savers interested in preserving open-pollinated strains from the encroachment of hybrids and GM plants.)
 
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Dulac said:
Open-pollinated doesn't mean not isolated. Open-pollinated plants can be isolated. For example you plant 4 bhut jolokias and cover the 4 together with mosquito netting to isolate them from other varieties that could cross-pollinate with them. Or you could grow a bunch of bhut jolokias in one area and grow another variety a couple miles away, which is not too practical.
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Perhaps I misunderstand, but to me open-pollenated means they could be pollenated by any plant in the vicinity and could produce unintentional crosses. I would consider the seed from the hypothetical Bhuts you describe as isolated; I would not consider them open-pollenated. Perhaps a better term for them might be "segregated." Technically yes, they could be considered "open pollenated" amongst a small number of Bhuts. But really I take OP to mean that there is no attempt to isolate (or in this case, "segregate") and that it might grow true, or it might grow a cross. Ajijoe is very clear that his seeds could grow unintentional crosses.

EDIT: Sawyer and I must have been typing at the same time, as I just now saw his post. I see what is meant by "open-pollenated," and now understand the technical definition, which is how you used it, Dulac. I have always understood it to mean that the seed in question could be an unintentional cross since other varieties were grown nearby.
 
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Armac, I can't do anything about it. It was my fault. The big issue is the supplier didn't want them being marketed as Chocolate Morougas with his name on them as they are not this. They are a Chocolate Scorpion Cross, extremely unstable. I have no right to tell Coheed not to do what he wants with what he bought. It was a no strings attached arrangement. However it happened, I already am aware every commercial seed seller who wanted these found their way to get them. The markets are quick on this stuff.

I think they were only in 3-4 boxes of pods I sold. They were not included to scam anyone or get rich quick. Anyone knows I could have sold the seeds - not the pods to everyone if I had this goal.
 
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Like you said Chris this is a small community, there should be enough mutual respect here that if you made a mistake, and do not want the seeds sold. Your wishes should be respected.

Ofcourse the commercializtion and profit factor may be more more important to some folks.

Thaks again Chris for the free seeds you sent me two years ago. It started me in the hobby.

Community
 
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coheed196 said:
So you're saying that somebody should not charge money for open pollinated seeds even if the seller is honest and open about the seeds not being isolated in any way?
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Yes. If I had a "special" jalapeno grown right next to a bunch of bells or not so special jalapenos, I wouldn't sell the seeds harvested from the "special" because who knows what the offspring are likely to be. If someone put the effort into covering the plants or blossoms of the "special" then they have the right to sell them as "special" because they are likely to be the same as the parent. It would be fine to give away "non-isolated special" though.
Captain Capsaicin said:
Would you mind elaborating a bit? I'd be curious to get a better understanding of your position as the logic isn't intuitive to me.
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Maybe the above response clarifies it a bit? I like to "know" what I am paying for, I'm not much of a gambler.
Naga Chomper said:
There's not a plant growing in the world right now that hasn't been subjected to open pollination somewhere in it's genetic past.
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Soooo we shouldn't bother isolating varieties to preserve their uniqueness? I guess I don't understand the point of this response, sorry :(
 
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IMO it's no one's business what anyone else does other than the parties directly involved. Whether theyre individuals, businesses, legal, or havent paid their dues. Who is anyone else to decide if someone dues are paid anyway?
 
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I'm glad my seeds got you into this hobby Armac. I always love hearing that. :)

It doesn't matter about the seed selling part anymore with this variety. It's a moot point. Every commercial seed seller already has these that I'm aware of. There are just some people / organizations that have a strong opinion on not wanting their stuff commercialized. Simple as that. In other cases, it's someone putting hard work into creating varieties and wanting first chance to market them. Both are valid reasons in my book. Different viewpoints, but good.

armac said:
Like you said Chris this is a small community, there should be enough mutual respect here that if you made a mistake, and do not want the seeds sold. Your wishes should be respected.

Ofcourse the commercializtion and profit factor may be more more important to some folks.

Thaks again Chris for the free seeds you sent me two years ago. It started me in the hobby.

Community
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Sawyer said:
Thank you. I've been harping on this point for awhile now. Basically, we deal with two kinds of plants, open-pollinated and hybrid. An open-pollinated strain or variety is one that breeds true to phenotype when pollinated only by its own kind. (There can still be random mutations and rare recessive traits and this is where some of the new varieties come from.) Hybrids result from cross-pollination between two different varieties and can become a unique open-pollinated strain over several generations by crossing them only with their own kind and selecting for a specific phenotype. This seems to be a popular activity amongst the folks here on THP. In my opinion, too many people are saying, "open-pollinated" when they really mean, "has the potential to have been cross-pollinated (with a different variety)", or simply, "not isolated".

(I realize there is a different, more technical, sense of the term "open-pollinated", but that sense is primarily used by botanists and other plant scientists. The sense I've presented here is the sense used by most hobbyists, heirloom gardeners and seed savers interested in preserving open-pollinated strains from the encroachment of hybrids and GM plants.)
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Oh THANK YOU so much for writing this definition! I have tried to clarify this before (some time ago), but everyone yelled at me and said they would define OP however they wanted. I think there should be a sticky with this clarification. Knowledge is power. THANK YOU!
 
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I have done a handful of seed auctions with full disclosure of them being open pollinated. Honestly, most things I grow from my own saved seeds grows pure, but it happens as we all know. I do not sell seeds - just ask for postage reimbursement on SASBE offers. I am very sure the winners of those auctions got the best side of the deal for many reasons!! I give away or trade seeds 99% of the time. It's how I got into this great hobby and what I truly enjoy. I love seeing new people get 'hooked' on it like did years ago.

I did sell some boxes of pods last year because I had extra. I have multiple reasons for it. I get a ton of requests for seeds and really can't help everyone. I probably already spend way more time on a hobby than I should. I love this hobby, but it's time consuming. I thought offering some extra pods makes things simple. Anyone can have a chance of getting some unique stuff to try. No worries about finding adequate seed trades. Win win for many. I'm always open to interesting seed trades as you all know. I can't resist. lol.

Chris

armac said:
You sell seeds Chris or just pods?
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Armac, I put those rules in place for two big reasons:

(1) Make things manageable on my side time wise; and

(2) Give equal change for everyone to try stuff I'm sharing. Some people spend more time on the forum and could take every spot in every auction. New growers wouldn't get to grow cool stuff. A lot of my reason of doing the offers is to let new people grow interesting and fun peppers that may not have lots of seed trading ammunition. I was in that boat before. I bought tons of commercial seeds from vendors to start and made some great contacts.
 
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DocNrock said:
Perhaps I misunderstand, but to me open-pollenated means they could be pollenated by any plant in the vicinity and could produce unintentional crosses. I would consider the seed from the hypothetical Bhuts you describe as isolated; I would not consider them open-pollenated. Perhaps a better term for them might be "segregated." Technically yes, they could be considered "open pollenated" amongst a small number of Bhuts. But really I take OP to mean that there is no attempt to isolate (or in this case, "segregate") and that it might grow true, or it might grow a cross. Ajijoe is very clear that his seeds could grow unintentional crosses.

EDIT: Sawyer and I must have been typing at the same time, as I just now saw his post. I see what is meant by "open-pollenated," and now understand the technical definition, which is how you used it, Dulac. I have always understood it to mean that the seed in question could be an unintentional cross since other varieties were grown nearby.
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Doc, here is an article that discusses the sense of the term as commonly used in most of the hobbyist and heirloom gardening communities I've come across. The wikipedia entry is clearly written by a specialist, using the term "cleistogamy" :confused: in the first line. Strictly speaking, your usage is consistent with the technical definition presented in wikipedia, but avoiding confusion on THP would require the introduction of a lot of additional terms. For example, in the strictest sense, the term "open pollinated" is ambiguous at best, because there is no information about whether the plants were isolated.

If we can all agree to the sense of usage common throughout most of the rest of the non-hybrid, non-GMO growing community, a lot of confusion can be avoided.
 
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cmpman1974 said:
I have done a handful of seed auctions with full disclosure of them being open pollinated. Honestly, most things I grow from my own saved seeds grows pure, but it happens as we all know. I do not sell seeds - just ask for postage reimbursement on SASBE offers. I am very sure the winners of those auctions got the best side of the deal for many reasons!! I give away or trade seeds 99% of the time. It's how I got into this great hobby and what I truly enjoy. I love seeing new people get 'hooked' on it like did years ago.

I did sell some boxes of pods last year because I had extra. I have multiple reasons for it. I get a ton of requests for seeds and really can't help everyone. I probably already spend way more time on a hobby than I should. I love this hobby, but it's time consuming. I thought offering some extra pods makes things simple. Anyone can have a chance of getting some unique stuff to try. No worries about finding adequate seed trades. Win win for many. I'm always open to interesting seed trades as you all know. I can't resist. lol.

Chris
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And I thank you, Chris!!
 
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DocNrock said:
EDIT: Sawyer and I must have been typing at the same time, as I just now saw his post. I see what is meant by "open-pollenated," and now understand the technical definition, which is how you used it, Dulac. I have always understood it to mean that the seed in question could be an unintentional cross since other varieties were grown nearby.
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Yeah, it's the technical definition and an important one too. Having OP plants is a great thing for the genetics of a particular variety. The term would be more obvious if we were not dealing with self-pollinating plants and dealing with populations of plants. Non-isolated is a useful term for letting people know what to expect.
 
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