Opinions on individuals selling seeds

coheed196

coheed196

I am curious as to what the opinions of you guys here are on an individual selling seeds. I know there are a few members here that are very outspoken and totally against an individual selling seeds. (By individual I mean somebody who is just a hobby grower and not a legal business)

I personally have sold seeds on this forum, I have also given away literally thousands of seeds as well. I am not looking to make a ton of money off of the seeds I sell but just maybe make enough to cover the cost of materials needed to keep and grow the peppers we all love.

I do not mind any individual selling seeds at all as long as the price is reasonably competitive and is not causing the legal businesses to lower their prices to an extent where they can't turn a profit and as long as the seller does not make false claims such as the seeds were isolated when they were not. The reasons I don't mind seeing individuals selling seeds are: If a legal business does not have seeds available for a variety I am wanting to grow. I can't find anybody willing to trade or do a SASBE for a variety I'm looking to grow. I don't want to wait around for a giveaway or contest of sorts that I may or may not win, or I don't want to wait until the summer when all the fresh pod auctions and sales start to flow and buy the pods and then dry the seeds myself because then it would be way too late to start the seeds this season (at least for my growing climate anyways)

For the members that are totally against individuals selling seeds, I am just curious as to why you feel that way. If you do not want somebody selling seeds, what's the difference in selling fresh pods? Both seeds and pods cost money and time to produce. If you want somebody to just give away seeds or pods, then why not just give away the whole plant? A bubble envelope with around 10 baggies of seeds sent 1st class mail cost me $2.07 to mail in the US. A 7 X 7 X 4 box with (1) 3.5" square pot and plant / seedling in it sent priority in the US cost me $7.68, so a difference of just at $5. I personally just do not see the difference in selling seeds and selling pods or starter plants. All of them take considerable time and money to produce, so why does it matter if I try to recoup some of that cost? I just see posts all the time on seed auctions and sells started by a non vendor saying "seeds should be given away" and I have absolutely never seen anybody saying that on a fresh pod or starter plant sell / auction.

I did not post this trying to get a rise out of anybody or to start a war / bashing session of any kind. I really hope this stays civil. I am just honestly curious as to what others here think about it. Anyways, thank you for reading.

Vincent Kelley
 
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patrick said:
Thanks Joyner.

If I give seeds to someone they can do what they please with them. Once they leave my hands that's it, I'm done. Now if I see someone selling them and making big money I'll probably feel like an idiot for not doing it myself and I may be hesitant to give them for free to the same individual again. I would hope that person understands too.

Take the SB7J for example. It's turning out to be a pretty popular pepper. It's getting a lot of positive comments on appearance and flavor. If I had kept it to myself who knows what I would have been able to do with it. Does it bother me that I may have given up some money by not hording it? Not yet. I see somebody selling seeds for it and making money it may bother me.

I don't think anyone has a right to admonish the way anyone does business if it doesn't have a direct effect on them. One of the reasons I quit bashing the C. Reaper. What the heck business of mine is it if people buy the seeds? None of us here are charged with making sure the rest of us do things the way we like to see them done. Take care of your own business.
Click to expand...

My only point, do what you feel is ethically right.

To each his own
 
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armac....if someone invites you to take some free peppers from them and tells you it is alright to sell them and make a little money...there's nothing ethically wrong with that. If you believe so, then you might need to go back to school and take another course on ethics.

This thread is starting to get ridiculous.

Vincent....most people on this site want to buy from a reputable individual, weather it be from someone in business or not. THAT is the majority feeling I get from the community. People don't want to get ripped off and they want to help their fellow chileheads. You've got a good name for yourself here and are a respectable guy....go sell some seeds and make some money.
 
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Here is how I see it. Vincent is one of the most generous folks I have run up on . He has sent numerous of us free sauce, powders, seeds and fresh pods. And if he took the time to drive several hours over to SS's house, picked pods all day, deseeded these pods, (sepia serpeants had to be painful ) . Ask'd SS if he was okay with selling his stuff and was given permision . Took the time to dry them, package them, and send them out . Also giving numerous people the opportunity to grow some of SS's amazing crosses. Then hats of to him and anyone else that wants to sell seeds. I for one have no problem with it at all.

Don't stop spreading the heat Vince cause a few bitter people.
 
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I don't really want to get in involved in the main thrust of this thread, but I do want to make a couple of (hopefully) clarifying remarks.

First, the definition of "legal vendor" will vary from state to state. Especially in states that have a strong agricultural tradition, there is usually a threshold amount of agricultural product you have to sell before needing to formally organize or incorporate with that state. Below that threshold, it's perfectly legal for individuals to sell their produce. Also, the requirements for formally organizing as a business (sole proprietorship, LLC, corporation) vary widely from state to state. In Arkansas there is a brief form to fill out, a $50 filing fee and a $150 annual franchise fee. If you are a sole proprietor or single member LLC you don't even need to request a EIN from the IRS. Your SSN will serve as your TIN. I assume other, non-US jurisdictions also have variable requirements. If you are shipping seeds or plants, there is the matter of phytosanitary certificates, but I see a lot of well-established firms looking the other way on that one. (And truth be told, I've forgotten most of what I did know about that last point.) My point being, unless the large, established vendor knows the laws of every jurisdiction and the books of every individual selling seeds, I don't see that there are any legal or ethical grounds for complaint.

Second, I've seen the term "open-pollinated" often used (twice in this thread alone) to imply that seeds will not grow true to phenotype. That is not necessarily correct. I think people are confusing "open-pollinated" with "cross-pollinated". Most strains that can be grown from seed and produce offspring of the same phenotype as the parents are open-pollinated. An isolated, open-pollinated plant will reproduce true to type (within the natural genetic variation of that particular strain). Landraces developed by being isolated by distance (along with any human selection that may have occurred). Since not many of us have the space necessary to isolate our plants by the necessary 1/2 mile or so, the same effect can be achieved by covering plants with an insect barrier. Note, though, that to maintain the characteristics of the original O.P. strain over time requires a minimum of about 60 plants. (HORTSCIENCE 28(10):1053. 1993)

Since not many of us have room to grow 60 specimens of a single strain year after year, this is one reason why trading seeds amongst ourselves in important to maintain the genetic identity of the original pure strains. It's relatively easy for a hobbyist to isolate plants, or even individual flowers (since pepper flowers are self-fertile), and then offer pure-strain open-pollinated seed. IMO, anyone offering seed for free, trade, or sale should state if the parent plants were isolated and in what manner. (That applies to the big concerns, too, but you don't often see that, with a few notable exceptions.)

Before I thread-jack too far (too late, I know), I won't say anything about hybrids. I offered some definitions about a year ago here that might help avoid confusion.
 
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I don't see how ethics are involved if the giver has no problem with it. Also if you're not directly involved in the equation, the giver, the seller, or the customer what business is it of yours to make any comments? Has someone been appointed morality police?

Correct me if I'm wrong. Someone was given seeds. That someone sold some of the seeds. Then a third party steps in, wasn't a buyer or a seller, and starts talking about ethics and how it's wrong to sell what you've been given. Is this correct?
 
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yawn.gif
 
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I'm still new in these parts, but here are my two thoughts:

1. Most hot pepper 'legal businesses' started out peddling seeds/pods at farmers markets and places like this. They've jumped through the hoops and paid the paper for licenses, and as a independent small business owner I can understand how they'd feel cut out by someone selling below cost. Why waste time being sour though? Perspective is key; There are many many customers. The vendor who concentrates more on quality products and excellent customer service will never be without cash flow. ;)

2. I just joined this site. In very little time I've had (completely free) instruction in the process of fermenting my first hot sauce, picked up numerous tips and tricks from everyone's glogs (for free) and received fantastic feedback on various questions I've asked about from people who are most definitely 'in the know'. Oh yeah - all for free. I also responded to an add offering free seeds for a SASBE (which I promptly read up on and still screwed up a little bit). I included some heirloom tomato and veronica cauliflower seeds in the pack because I couldn't believe how effing cool it was that some complete stranger was sending me hard to find kickass hot pepper seeds! My point is that the free -- or sometimes charged for -- exchange of seeds and information around here is unique and excellent. And should continue unabated without judgement. As long as possible.

Thanks
Dru
 
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patrick said:
I don't see how ethics are involved if the giver has no problem with it. Also if you're not directly involved in the equation, the giver, the seller, or the customer what business is it of yours to make any comments? Has someone been appointed morality police?

Correct me if I'm wrong. Someone was given seeds. That someone sold some of the seeds. Then a third party steps in, wasn't a buyer or a seller, and starts talking about ethics and how it's wrong to sell what you've been given. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

Basically patrick, i was lucky and got invited to SS's garden to strip his plants of pods. I picked pods for 7 hours (thats not counting driving time). I then de-seeded said pods and dried and packaged said seeds. I had full permission to sell pods and seeds.

He believes im doing something unethical by selling those goods. I make a whoppong $1.15 - $2.15 per seed order. ($0.78 for bubble envelope, $2.07 postage. I charge $4 -$5 per bag of seeds) so im not getting filthy rich but oh well i say if you dont want to pay for seeds then dont buy them
 
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Thanks for the clarification coheed. I remember you picking SS's pods, that was a great thread. I was a little jealous but then figured if you're the one crawling around on your back to get through his garden and get the pods you earned them. Even if SS gave them to you they're yours to do with what you please. Who gives someone a gift and then says what you can do with it? Nobodies business what you make off of them either.
 
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Coheed, from a "legal vendor's" point of view I do not see anything wrong with what you are doing either. I know here, in Illinois, you can run a business without even registering for a business license up to a certain monetary point. I believe the last time I checked it was $400 a year. The state considers your business a "profitable hobby". Even if you make over $400 a year, it still isn't an issue, you just have to register the next year if you continue that particular business. My advise to anyone who finds the time, energy and desire to go into any profitable venture to protect themselves by forming a licensed business. There are so many benefits and protections that it really is in your best interest. Even operating as a sole-proprietorship gains you the ability to claim expenses and nice deductions on your taxes. I wouldn't have stayed in business the first two years without the tax help I got from making some fairly large investments with my own personal funds.

I don't personally feel like you are undercutting vendor business really, the vendors that keep good reputations will continue to find business from both inside this forum and from the outside world. If vendors find that they need to adjust their prices due to market pressures, we then that is just the name of the game in business. That is the beauty of the free market system.

As far as this topic about getting peppers for free and selling the seed, well don't even worry about it. The only person that should have anything to say on that topic is SS, and I would think if he had a problem he would have said something by now.

Carry on...
 
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After reading some of the comments here about the fear that hobbyists selling seeds will drive down prices, I have a nasty thought running through my head.

The little guy or gal selling a few seeds on the Net is not the real threat. More and more, seed strains are becoming copyrights of the big ag companies. That's what you should be worried about. I read an article recently that some of the big chili farmers in New Mexico are talking about going GMO, which will mean that their seeds will be patented, and possibly worse. Look at what Monsanto is doing to the small-time farmers not only here, but around the World!

In fact, while I was looking through the Chiliman's Chili Database, I came across a few varieties of chilies in which the variety is trademarked, and the seeds and plants are sold with the understanding that they are for personal use only. What's to stop some slimy corporate lawyer from shaking you down, claiming that you have stolen their patented seed for your own profit?

What I say might sound extreme, but do your research. You'll see that this is already happening with small-time farmers and growers who grow other plants.

So really, don't worry about the little guy trying to make a buck or two. Worry about the big guys coming to shake you down!
 
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90%+ of our seeds for the garden this year are from reputable heirloom seed sellers....we'll try to harvest seeds from the crops and next year do the same :) Hopefully no jerks nearby plant gmo stuff and pollute our nice old school plants :)
 
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