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Orange Hab Hotter Than Red Savina?

UrbanNoir75

UrbanNoir75

redvorange.jpg

Assuming this is an old thread somewhere, but cursory searches revealed nothing so I thought I'd bring it up here.

As a longtime chilehead, this news came as something of a surprise (albeit with an incredulous stare). That the Red Savina Habanero was the old title holder, tipping the scales at just over 500,000 SHU on (average) is common knowledge, and that most Red Savinas were comparatively stronger than their Orange cousins has been a pervading given. At least one study appears to challenge this, however.

I came across something on Wikipedia where one author mentions a study by Chile Pepper Institute at New Mexico State University done in 2005 where they measured the average heat of Red Savinas at 248,000 SHU, and found the average Scoville rating of Orange Habaneros at 357,000 SHU. The 'average' part made me pause, because that would mean they hadn't just stumbled across some random anomaly. All of their Red Savinas were consistently trounced by Orange Habs.

I personally never noticed a marked difference between the two, and I've eaten them both whole. I'm wondering if there's some truth to this, or if it's isolated to their available test varieties. I know that if a seasoned chile grower tried, they could probably find ways to weaken their Red Savinas, while optimizing their Orange Habs. I also know a lot of sloppy seed dealers grow their Red Savina plants next to mild cross-pollinators, with little effort to isolate, and sell offspring seeds labeled "Red Savina" all the time. Was there a polluted gene pool for tested cultivars? If so, I hope it isn't a trend.

The author cited Dave DeWitt's The Complete Chile Pepper Book. I actually own this book, and don't remember the section, and as the room where I keep my books looks like Brock Lesnar has been breakdancing in it at the moment, I couldn't find it to verify.

Any anecdotal experiences substantiate this?


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FireAlchemy75 said:
The author cited Dave DeWitt's The Complete Chile Pepper Book. I actually own this book, and don't remember the section, and as the room where I keep my books looks like Brock Lesnar has been breakdancing in it at the moment, I couldn't find it to verify.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be looking at his book to verify, he is an idiot.
 
Hi FireAlchemy75,

Yes what you read on Wiki was correct. I read that section in DeWitt's book and he explained how the testing was carried out in 2005 at NMSU by Dr. Paul Bosland.

And the strange thing about the Red Savina pepper is that it supposedly tested out at 544,000 scoville heat units once, but has never tested anywhere near that high again, according to Dr. Bosland.

I recall reading somewhere that the Red Savina was discovered growing in a field of Orange Habbies, and seed of those red pods were collected.

That might explain why there isn't a great deal of difference in heat between the two.

So your heat sensors were not deceiving you, there isn't a lot of difference between those two. :cool:

dvg
 
There have been many tests over the years, just like the ones in Dave DeWitt's book. the truth is, chiles are capable reaching amazing levels of capsaicin when grown in the right, or should I say "wrong" conditions. the 577,000SHU mark was never duplicated. the average orange Habanero is actually somewhere between 100,000SHU and 200,000SHU, where sometimes commercial grown ones (perhaps because of early harvest) are way below the 100,000SHU mark. the data of Red Savina, I would suspect, is not much different. with all that said, I still think the Red Savina tastes better than the orange Habanero.

There was also a test where the Caribbean Reds scored over 450,000SHU, which is really impressive for a non-Jolokia or of Trinidad origin C. chinense.
Personally I think the best bang for the buck is the Fatalii. a massive amount of heat with large, juicy and delicious pods.
 
My personal experience of growing both shows the Red Savina to be much hotter, maybe even twice as hot. I find both to be tasty though and the Orange Hab is certainly worth growing.
 
bigt said:
My personal experience of growing both shows the Red Savina to be much hotter, maybe even twice as hot. I find both to be tasty though and the Orange Hab is certainly worth growing.
Click to expand...
Are you sure those were Red Savinas? also, did you compare them to home grown oranges? I do know my Caribbean Reds are way other than both my Red Savina and orange Habaneros. that's why I always grow a bunch of them.
 
There are many versions of orange habanero with varying heat levels, but really only one Red savina.

Look at this old test and the SHU from the different seed sources
http://www.fiery-foods.com/article-archives/86-capsaicin/105-2001-scoville-heat-levels-reported
 
POTAWIE said:
Look at this old test and the SHU from the different seed sources
http://www.fiery-foods.com/article-archives/86-capsaicin/105-2001-scoville-heat-levels-reported
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link...I was particularly glad to learn of the highly variable SHU rating of Tabasco, which clocked in in that particular test at 190,524!

My lunchtime experience of several weeks ago has now been validated: I was incapacitated by a single Tabasco pod grown by a co-worker at his home. Agonizing 30-minute stomach burn which I had only previously experienced after eating Caribbean Reds...

Now that I've got PTSD from eating a tiny little bird chile, I've had to go back to eating milder pods, like Congo Trinidad.

I wish I was kidding...
 
I have an orange hab plant that produces amazingly hot pods. Even Lord Vykor had a tear run and hours of belly ache after i gave him one to eat (he agreed - nothing like the usual hab he's ever tried). I would not be surprised if mine is a random anomaly either as i have eaten reds and oranges that don't hurt as much as these little freaks.
 
Omri said:
Are you sure those were Red Savinas? also, did you compare them to home grown oranges? I do know my Caribbean Reds are way other than both my Red Savina and orange Habaneros. that's why I always grow a bunch of them.
Click to expand...


Yeah, they were both homegrown - the Red Savina was hot but not insane. Below a Fatalii in heat. The last time I grew Caribbean Reds(Burpee Seeds) I thought they were very hot, but it's been so many years ago my point of reference is out of whack. At the time I grew the CR's they were the hottest thing for me ever. Then several years later came an extremely potent batch of Chocolate Habs. The Orange Habs I grow are way hotter than store bought, but I can still eat a whole one in food. I could not eat a whole Red Savina or anything hotter w/o serious GI repercussions.
 
dvg said:
Hi FireAlchemy75,

Yes what you read on Wiki was correct. I read that section in DeWitt's book and he explained how the testing was carried out in 2005 at NMSU by Dr. Paul Bosland.

And the strange thing about the Red Savina pepper is that it supposedly tested out at 544,000 scoville heat units once, but has never tested anywhere near that high again, according to Dr. Bosland.

I recall reading somewhere that the Red Savina was discovered growing in a field of Orange Habbies, and seed of those red pods were collected.

That might explain why there isn't a great deal of difference in heat between the two.

So your heat sensors were not deceiving you, there isn't a lot of difference between those two. :cool:

dvg
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, dvg.

Curious the Red Savina has come to enjoy such a venerated status when in reality its average heat is so routinely surpassed by the Orange Hab. It would appear its reputation is at least partially unwarranted.


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Omri said:
There have been many tests over the years, just like the ones in Dave DeWitt's book. the truth is, chiles are capable reaching amazing levels of capsaicin when grown in the right, or should I say "wrong" conditions. the 577,000SHU mark was never duplicated. the average orange Habanero is actually somewhere between 100,000SHU and 200,000SHU, where sometimes commercial grown ones (perhaps because of early harvest) are way below the 100,000SHU mark. the data of Red Savina, I would suspect, is not much different. with all that said, I still think the Red Savina tastes better than the orange Habanero.

There was also a test where the Caribbean Reds scored over 450,000SHU, which is really impressive for a non-Jolokia or of Trinidad origin C. chinense.
Personally I think the best bang for the buck is the Fatalii. a massive amount of heat with large, juicy and delicious pods.
Click to expand...


Yeah, it's interesting to see it oscillate so dramatically between 100,000 to 300,000 SHU. As you pointed out, clearly not all Red Savinas are made alike. I'd be interested to see how much of a chile's heat is nature vs. nurture.

It would seem, given all the potentiality and variables, the same genetic blueprint in a given seed can vary by hundreds of thousands of SHU depending on how it is cultivated. I'd love to identify all of those controlled variables that contribute to maximum heat output. I think we've established here at least one of those techniques is probably stressing.

This has definitely made me look at Red Savinas with a little more scrutiny.
 
POTAWIE said:
There are many versions of orange habanero with varying heat levels, but really only one Red savina.

Look at this old test and the SHU from the different seed sources
http://www.fiery-foods.com/article-archives/86-capsaicin/105-2001-scoville-heat-levels-reported
Click to expand...

Or at least only one variety tested there. We have the benefit of two different seed sources for the Orange Hab on that list, but one for the Red Savina. Revealing chart. Thanks for the link there, btw.


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FireAlchemy75 you don't need to reply to each comment separately. there's a MultiQuote button.

What most people don't understand is, 100,000SHU is HOT! anything over 100,000SHU is VERY HOT. until you grow your own the right way, you can't be sure you've actually eaten anything over that. usually the store bought are way under the known mark.
 
FireAlchemy75 said:
Or at least only one variety tested there. We have the benefit of two different seed sources for the Orange Hab on that list, but one for the Red Savina. Revealing chart. Thanks for the link there, btw.


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Click to expand...

But there is only one real red savina and its very stable
True red Savinas are a very specific variety which can only be sold legally by licensed growers/sellers(especially in 2001 when this study was done) since they are trademarked as well as a PVP(plant variety protection). Heat levels for the Savina are shown in this study to be around 250000 which is about the same as most other SHU tests I've seen for this particular chile(other than the original inflated test). Heat should not normally vary hundrerds of thousands of SHU within the same variety, except maybe for the hottest types which are over a million, and only really 10% difference
 
I think alot of people would be very interested in a scoville-o-meter, myself included. Sure you can taste it but theres no way to be sure with just your tounge.
 
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